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Stevey
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 Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:50 am Post subject:
Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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I found a web page that describe the operation of the Shuguang factory.
Although it
is in Chinese, but the pictures are interesting. Note that LG is a partner
of Shunguang for
CRT and LCD panels. This is why you see LG logo outside the factory.
http://www.ks-hifi.com/artical/shuguang/shuguang.htm
Steve
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kyser
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:49 am Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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"Stevey" <stevey88remove@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:SFlwd.271814$R05.267636@attbi_s53...
| Quote: | I found a web page that describe the operation of the Shuguang factory.
Note that LG is a partner of Shunguang for
CRT and LCD panels. This is why you see LG logo outside the factory.
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And Philips? Interesting pics, pity it's not in English. |
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cowboy
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:01 am Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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"Stevey" <stevey88remove@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:SFlwd.271814$R05.267636@attbi_s53...
| Quote: | I found a web page that describe the operation of the Shuguang factory.
Although it
is in Chinese, but the pictures are interesting. Note that LG is a partner
of Shunguang for
CRT and LCD panels. This is why you see LG logo outside the factory.
http://www.ks-hifi.com/artical/shuguang/shuguang.htm
Steve
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WHOA!
that is nasty and WAY COOL at the same time!
thanks for the link! |
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Patrick Turner
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:35 am Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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cowboy wrote:
| Quote: | "Gregg" wrote in message
Thanks for sharing that! :-)
I sure hope those craftspeople are paid what they're obviously worth in
that rare and skilled trade ;-)
your funny!
if those girls are making over 10 cents/hour it will surprise me!
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A bowl of rice in china is cheap though.
Patrick Turner. |
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Patrick Turner
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:35 am Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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Gregg wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for sharing that! :-)
I sure hope those craftspeople are paid what they're obviously worth in
that rare and skilled trade ;-)
|
The wages paid in china are a tiny fraction of the wages paid in western
nations like the US or Oz for technically demanding work.
Western nations are queing up to get products made in china because of the
absurdly low wage rates
where it results in a chinese person having to save up for weeks to buy an
EL34, but
allows a guy in the US to get one for the wages made in one hour.
Your implied question is one that cannot be answered positively, since wage
injustice
looks set to continue due to WTAs..
Chinese workers don't have workers compensation, holiday pay,
access to medical treatments, or any of the luxuries we take for granted.
They slave away all day for a pittance, and afaik, unionism is not allowed.
Workers are not allowed to ask employers for the wages to be paid at
US rates for the same work, and in US dollars.
Their product is shipped out at $3 for an EL34, and sold to the end user at
$30.
The english version of the factory tour emphasises that the workers have
good lighting,
good eyesight, clean conditions, great quality control.
But we don't know how much cathode substance poisening goes on....
The workers still seemed to have dingy conditions from what I can see in
the images.
It all sounds like propaganda to me, since there are no real in depth
reports of what really happens when they test 100 samples of any tube
during a 24 hr burn period.
The equipment they are using is probably 50 years old.
There are about 300 steps involved in making an EL34.
How many of them are used at the chinese factory, how many left out?
It all seems like an effort to try to counter the idea that chinese tubes
are crap.
I think they have to try a little harder before they get up the reputation
that
the Oz branch of Mullard had in 1960.
Why does New Sensor have testing facilities in NY?
So that the dud tubes get mostly removed from the flow of russian tubes;
you don't
need to many duds to make tube selling a nightmare.
And to allow matching of quads and pairs.
I know folks who have experienced 40% failure rates for chinese KT88
in a year, and others that have had excessive variations in biasing points
for randomly picked samples.
This is all due to sloppy work.
Patrick Turner.
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cowboy
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:35 am Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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"Gregg" wrote in message
| Quote: | Thanks for sharing that! :-)
I sure hope those craftspeople are paid what they're obviously worth in
that rare and skilled trade ;-)
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your funny!
if those girls are making over 10 cents/hour it will surprise me! |
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Oskari Heinonen
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Gregg
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:35 am Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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Thanks for sharing that! :-)
I sure hope those craftspeople are paid what they're obviously worth in
that rare and skilled trade ;-)
--
Gregg t3h g33k
"Ratings are for transistors....tubes have guidelines"
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca |
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robert casey
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:40 am Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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| Quote: | Workers are not allowed to ask employers for the wages to be paid at
US rates for the same work, and in US dollars.
Their product is shipped out at $3 for an EL34, and sold to the end user at
$30.
The english version of the factory tour emphasises that the workers have
good lighting,
|
Judging from the way the camera's flash bulb lit up most
of the scenes, the normal lighting looks to be way too dim.
| Quote: | good eyesight, clean conditions,
|
Doesn't look all that clean in places.
great quality control.
| Quote: | But we don't know how much cathode substance poisening goes on....
|
How hazardous are the materials in vacuum tubes? About
the only place where the material would be critical would be
the cathode coatings, and maybe the stuff on heaters.
The rest is just ordinary sheet metal, wire, mica and
glass.
| Quote: | The workers still seemed to have dingy conditions from what I can see in
the images.
Yes.
It all sounds like propaganda to me, since there are no real in depth
reports of what really happens when they test 100 samples of any tube
during a 24 hr burn period.
|
How big is that dumpster in back?....
| Quote: | The equipment they are using is probably 50 years old.
|
A lot looks to not meet OSHA regulations.
| Quote: | There are about 300 steps involved in making an EL34.
How many of them are used at the chinese factory, how many left out?
|
How many steps are required to make a tube that works at
all, much less than meeting specs? Assembling stuff by
hand has got to throw in tons of variables hard to control.
In America, assuming big enough volume, we'd figure out
machinery to automatically do the assembly. That's today,
not 60 years ago (we did it by hand back then, had to be
expensive).
| Quote: |
It all seems like an effort to try to counter the idea that chinese tubes
are crap. |
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robert casey
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:50 am Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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Patrick Turner wrote:
| Quote: |
if those girls are making over 10 cents/hour it will surprise me!
A bowl of rice in china is cheap though.
|
From what I've heard (which may well be wrong)
the different expenses of life in China are
way different, not just the scale but ratios.
That was clear as mud... Anyway, it seemed that
housing was quite cheap (rent for an apartment was
about $5 a month) but food was by comparison very
expensive. Not like in the USA where the biggest cost
by far is the cost of housing. And housing costs
are vastly different depending where you are (Silicon
Valley is expensive, Austin TX housing costs about
half that, and quite cheap in some town in the
middle of nowhere, North Dakota. When relocating
I only look at housing costs, as everything else
is about the same everywhere in the USA and such
a small fraction of the budget it wouldn't matter.
Where the Chinese worker really loses out is when he
want to buy the same Japanese made toy I bought. |
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Gregg
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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That is disgustingly sad :-(
And my government (Canada) is being told by big buisness to stop bitching
about human rights and just deal with them for cheap goods.
--
Gregg t3h g33k
"Ratings are for transistors....tubes have guidelines"
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca |
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Patrick Turner
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:31 pm Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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Gregg wrote:
| Quote: | That is disgustingly sad :-(
And my government (Canada) is being told by big buisness to stop bitching
about human rights and just deal with them for cheap goods.
|
This will put more Canadians out of work.
They say that if a spare under-utilised 300 million chinese peasants
were put to use in the factories proposed, nobody in the rest of the world
would have to make anything at all, they'd just be doing each other's
washing,
and hanging around in work places pretending to be busy, trying to avoid the
sack.
Another 300 million under-utilised Indians could be employed to do all our
sit-at-desk jobs, and no more need for real estate agents and lawyers et all.
Surely its cheaper to fly somebody to Singapore for the cheaper dentists
there
than have american dentists rob their patients the way they do?
It sounds like efficiency gone mad.
The ideal world is one where the same opportunity for buying, and selling
anything exists everywhere. The same working conditions and wages should be
world wide.
The living standards for all should be equal.
So if an Afghani sheep herder gets a sore knee, he should be entitled to a
new
free titaniun knee joint like I am under my nation's public health system.
But if a stray russian land mine or american bomblet from a cluster weapon
blows half his leg off, we should pay to help him and his family as well as
find where all the unexploded weapons are, and pick the bastards up and take
them back home.
And everyone should be still free to make a profit, but its not an obscene
profit.
Training pigs to fly is much easier than training the world to be a fairer
place for all.
Patrick Turner.
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Patrick Turner
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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robert casey wrote:
| Quote: | Workers are not allowed to ask employers for the wages to be paid at
US rates for the same work, and in US dollars.
Their product is shipped out at $3 for an EL34, and sold to the end user at
$30.
The english version of the factory tour emphasises that the workers have
good lighting,
Judging from the way the camera's flash bulb lit up most
of the scenes, the normal lighting looks to be way too dim.
good eyesight, clean conditions,
Doesn't look all that clean in places.
great quality control.
But we don't know how much cathode substance poisening goes on....
How hazardous are the materials in vacuum tubes? About
the only place where the material would be critical would be
the cathode coatings, and maybe the stuff on heaters.
The rest is just ordinary sheet metal, wire, mica and
glass.
The workers still seemed to have dingy conditions from what I can see in
the images.
Yes.
It all sounds like propaganda to me, since there are no real in depth
reports of what really happens when they test 100 samples of any tube
during a 24 hr burn period.
How big is that dumpster in back?....
The equipment they are using is probably 50 years old.
A lot looks to not meet OSHA regulations.
There are about 300 steps involved in making an EL34.
How many of them are used at the chinese factory, how many left out?
How many steps are required to make a tube that works at
all, much less than meeting specs? Assembling stuff by
hand has got to throw in tons of variables hard to control.
In America, assuming big enough volume, we'd figure out
machinery to automatically do the assembly. That's today,
not 60 years ago (we did it by hand back then, had to be
expensive).
|
I recall that in Australia in 1960, an EL34 cost about 1/3 of a week's wages
for somebody on average weekly earnings.
Bloody Mullard saw you a comimg when you blew a tube.
It didn't take a person 1/3 of a week to make one EL34 in a factory,
more like about 15 minutes per tube.
Those nimble fingered women worked faster than one would suspect....
AWE are now about aud $700, ($36,500 pa ) and an EL34 from China
costs about $30, or two hours of work, and only marginally more than a power bjt
made in far greater numbers.
A pair of chinese work boots now cost less than $30, and the shop selling them
here
would buy them from china at $3 a pair.
Oz made boots used to cost $100 10 years ago, when $100 was worth about $200 now.
Now the price of Oz made boots has declined significantly as tariffs are being
removed.
Our factories will give up soon, so better we let the chinese make our boots?.
Or better we make the chinese governent insist on better wages and working
conditions?
They do have a "People's Party" still in power over there.
But nobody really gives a shit about it all, the folks at the top and in control
are alright jack......
The price to the importers direct from the factory of EL34 is about $3 each,
mimimum order 10,000 tubes, so about a container full.
So the profit generated after the factory is far greater than that made before it
leaves the factory.
Obviously, the chinese need to have a % of their staff become savvy about selling
direct to end users,
and be able to learn good english, and about anglo saxon notions of trust,
quality, reliability,
and all of what is written in books like the RDH4 and then instead of their boss
getting $3 a tube of which
$1.50 is profits or graft payments, they'd be able to charge us $15 for each
tube, and have something
to invest in better factory infra structure, to make sure the product was in fact
worth buying.
Notice how there are no chinese from china, Indians from India who are into tubes
and who
are able to partake the WWW as we know it.
Somebody said the Africans who grow coffee should do a similar thing, and we'd
all be better off
except the handlers and middle men who add nothing to productivity except noughts
on the price.
Alas, the solidarity required just isn't there.
It is to be hoped that people everywhere in the world become more educated, more
connected,
and allow themselves the luxury of dreams about a better future, and the
indulgence of
building it so it happens, rather than endless slavery from cradle to grave.
Patrick Turner.
| Quote: |
It all seems like an effort to try to counter the idea that chinese tubes
are crap. |
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Fabio Berutti
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:27 pm Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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| Quote: | Training pigs to fly is much easier than training the world to be a fairer
place for all.
|
If You can teach pigs to fly, You're half way, 'cos You can then teach 'em
to... ehm... evacuate on any prime minister head they spot from above.
These fine guys will then be busy shampooing and the world will enjoy some
rest. I'm sure we need bosses just like a starving dog needs fleas.
Back to tubes, a Philetta radio from the 50s can still work today. OK, SS
cheap stuff is cheaper, but how many transistor radios have been scrapped in
the last 40 years? Price of any good should include "social" price, ie.
pollution to produce it, pollution to dispose of it, diseases produced by
this pollution and so on. The present price of any good comes from a form
of "social dumping", ie. companies download on the shoulders of the rest of
the world many costs they produced.
If prices were correctly formulated the labor cost would account for 1/100th
of them, and producing anything here, there or everywhere would be
pointless.
Tubes are a good example of a technology that allowed to build stuff that
was functional enough, cheap enough and easy to repair so as to make it
virtually eternal. It was fine for the customer, but it provided not enough
profits.
Even these days "hardware" prices do not make such a difference, think of a
300B PP: four Russian tubes cost now some 400$, and they will last say 5-6
years even listening to the amp 8 hours per day, 365 days per year. A
quartet of Chinese ones can save say 100-150$, or 150/365/6=7 cents per day
in the very best scenario. Labour is in any case a fraction of this price
difference, say less than 1 cent per day.
And now the closure: is really the cheap Chinese work saving some money to
Western purchasers? Is it worh the pain, or it's just one more way for
mega-corporations to make mega-bucks?
How much does the labour cost influence the final price of some stuff which
is 99% made by robots?
Anyway, happy New Year... I don't think it will be, but hoping is free.
Fabio |
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Patrick Turner
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:56 pm Post subject:
Re: Pictures of Shuguang factory |
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robert casey wrote:
| Quote: | Patrick Turner wrote:
if those girls are making over 10 cents/hour it will surprise me!
A bowl of rice in china is cheap though.
From what I've heard (which may well be wrong)
the different expenses of life in China are
way different, not just the scale but ratios.
That was clear as mud... Anyway, it seemed that
housing was quite cheap (rent for an apartment was
about $5 a month) but food was by comparison very
expensive.
|
But they get maybe $2 per week.
So a single person couldn't afford an appartment,
so 5 of them cram into one small place........
| Quote: | Not like in the USA where the biggest cost
by far is the cost of housing.
|
It depends whether you rent or have bought a place.
To rent a room here in a share house is about $120 now.
But I worked my arse off when i was young, and I paid off my house
10 years after I bought it in 1976 after saving what was 1/3 of its
value in
5 years of working overtime for the company. It has gained in value all
these years.
I now rent out 1/2 the house to a delightful lady who happily
pays me $100 rent each week.
So I don't pay a cent for housing, and I get to chat on the WWW
instead of driving taxis to make ends meet.
Food costs me about $70 per week, including 3 restaurant meals a week.
I earn about 1/5 of average weekly earnings in Oz which is about $700
per week,
before tax is paid.
I am a minimalist.
The maximalists are always complaining about the high cost of living
| Quote: | And housing costs
are vastly different depending where you are (Silicon
Valley is expensive, Austin TX housing costs about
half that, and quite cheap in some town in the
middle of nowhere, North Dakota. When relocating
I only look at housing costs, as everything else
is about the same everywhere in the USA and such
a small fraction of the budget it wouldn't matter.
|
Lemme see now, my slightly larger then average house, 3 bedrooms, 2
bathrooms,
pool, nice tree lined street, nice back yard, large workshop, 7 minutes
from the
centre of a clean modern city with little crime, and easy parking
is worth about aud $450,000. That's USD $338,000.
Maybe you'd be better off over here.
I figured I would never relocate.
But if I relocated to china, I'd be able to live like a king for the
rest of my life,
and teach them how to make good amps and set up a marketting company
that worked best for those that got their hands dirty making the amps.
Its too challenging for me.
I decided to re-train my brain rather than move.
If I moved, the same problems would exist, just in a new place.
A move costs serious money.
Poor health forced me to turn my hobby of electronics into a business;
before that I was a construction contractor.
I figured I could transfer my competency to a new field of interest
rather than battle on with arthritic knees, and building became boring
at age 50.....
| Quote: | Where the Chinese worker really loses out is when he
want to buy the same Japanese made toy I bought.
|
I think the chinese worker loses out in 1,001 ways compared to my way of
life.
They don't even have democracy there, and when a few students tried to
protest,
the bastards in power got the tanks to run them over.
The whole chinese focus is on the group, not the individual.
Maybe after several more generations of one child families, they might
be able to make a better standard of living for themselves.
Girls are severly restricted in opportunity, and female infanticide is
still widespread
so that for 10 men, there are only 8 women, so only the chosen few can
marry.
They say there are almost zero unmarried women in china.
And then they allowed only one child, but perhaps if they get rich and
know who to bribe
they may get to have two.
Depression pills are expensive, so they tough it all out....
Meanwhile in Japan there are record numbers of women of 20 to 40 who
have never married, and never left home,
and they seem to have all they want...
There are no generally applicable universal rules about worldwide social
demographics...
Uncertainty is certain.
Patrick Turner. |
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