| Author |
Message |
Ban
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:18 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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Harry Lavo wrote:
| Quote: | "michael" <pm279@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:cpo6220e7@news4.newsguy.com...
Kevin Smith wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about with half this stuff.
However, if you can't tell the difference between a $20 Cd player
and an £1100 (yes, real money) player, then perhaps an ear
syringing could be in order!
Many years ago, I changed my NAD5440 CD player for a naim-audio
CD3.5. The sonic difference was immediate. I regularly listen to a
naim CDS. It blows my 3.5 out of the water. In fact, it's
depressing when I return home and have to listen to my system.
Have you ever listened to top end hifi?
Everyone has some anecdotes. A year ago a colleague had me over to
his house to listen to his new Sound Labs driven by something called
a Wolcott tube amplifier and an expensive French high end CD player
whose brand I cannot now recall. When he was out of the room and on
a lark I hooked up a portable Panasonic player I had with me in my
sack. When he came back Pat Barber was singing and my friend had no
idea he was listening to a 100 dollar portable. It's easy to fool
yourself in these matters.
What it shows is an expectation bias .... people don't expect
dishonesty. Same goes for doing an "a-b" where the source is not
really switched, just seemingly so. Proponents say this "proves"
that things sound the same and that only expectation bias is at work.
I say the expectation bias overwhelms whatever differences do
exist...simply because people in either of these circumstances are
not expecting fraud.
|
Harry is right, to be sure about this matter it would be necessary to switch
from one player to the other level matched and compare them. This is easy
with digital (optical or coax) outputs as they will automatically create the
same level in the external DAC.
I use a Behringer "Ultramatch Pro" and it has an optical and a coax digital
input (along with a XLR AES/EBU) and a pushbutton to select the input on the
front panel. This makes an easy A/B tester.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy
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normanstrong
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:25 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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"Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:cpoedo01lvs@news1.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | "michael" <pm279@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:cpo6220e7@news4.newsguy.com...
house to listen to his new Sound Labs driven by something called a
Wolcott tube amplifier and an expensive French high end CD player
whose
brand I cannot now recall. When he was out of the room and on a
lark I
hooked up a portable Panasonic player I had with me in my sack.
When he
came back Pat Barber was singing and my friend had no idea he was
listening to a 100 dollar portable. It's easy to fool yourself in
these
matters.
What it shows is an expectation bias .... people don't expect
dishonesty.
Same goes for doing an "a-b" where the source is not really
switched, just
seemingly so. Proponents say this "proves" that things sound the
same and
that only expectation bias is at work. I say the expectation bias
overwhelms whatever differences do exist...simply because people in
either
of these circumstances are not expecting fraud.
|
You're quite right. People don't expect fraud, and I agree that such
a test is not valid. I would not expect a person, under these
circumstances, to immediately say, "Hey, wait a minute, that doesn't
sound like my Sound Labs." So how long should it take a person to
uncover the fraud? Surely there must be some time limit beyond which
one can say that the benefits of the expensive gear are all in the
mind. A day? 2 days? 4 days? A year?
You might say, "Sure, but the owner gradually gets used to the new
inferior sound, and it provides a new benchmark which he mistakenly
associates with the high priced player." To that I suggest that
changing back to the expensive unit will then sound worse!
There has to be some point where expensive gear justifies itself
sonically, or this is all just a game. A fun game, to be sure, but a
game nonetheless. There have been persistent attempts to test high
end stuff for audibility in such a way that the results will be
persuasive to high-enders. There's always been some objection, right
up to the actual claim that the mere fact that it's a test obscures
the differences. So, if failing to tell the subject that he is being
tested is fraud, and telling him ruins the test, what is one to do?
This is a serious question, by the way.
Merry Xmas,
Norm Strong |
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B&D
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:25 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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On 12/15/04 8:17 PM, in article cpqnmu0ath@news3.newsguy.com, "Chung"
<chunglau@covad.net> wrote:
| Quote: | BTW, since you agree that expectation bias needs to be removed if real
differences are to be discerned, why do you object to controlled testing
that removes expectation bias, such as DBT?
|
If you are biased against hearing a difference, how could DBT remove *that*
bias? |
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B&D
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:26 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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On 12/15/04 8:15 PM, in article cpqnjs0aj3@news3.newsguy.com, "Nousaine"
<nousaine@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Expectation bias that expects a difference every time is overwhelmed by
getting
the same sound twice in a row? So people can't tell when they are listening
to
2 identical presentations and are psychologically forced to hear "difference"
when none exists?
It is true that the human sensory/intepretation/decision-making system does
operate on an expectation of differences (as does the simple act of
comparison)
but how could that possibly "mask" differences and also have people report 2
identical sounds as being different?
|
Herein lies a basic issue with all these sorts of testing - perception is a
slippery thing and not easily measured - it is not well understood, too.
It would be good for those that are interested to read both _Mind Wide Open_
as well as _Mind Hacks_ for an understanding of how the mind works.
From a read of the former and beginning the latter, I think it is both
possible to hear a difference where NONE exists, as well as not hear a
difference, when one DOES exist.
Since listening to music can be emotionally involving, mood affects
enjoyment, and so on, I would agree with you - there is a lot of pressure
where someone will all but think they are hearing a difference (looking at
some optical illusions, it can also be that there may be auditory illusions
as well) when there isn't one. I think the reverse might be true as well -
that someone could swear up and down there is no difference when there is
one (I mean this well above the supposed audibility threshold) due to equal
pressure to NOT hear a difference. |
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B&D
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:26 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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On 12/15/04 8:18 PM, in article cpqnps0b6m@news3.newsguy.com, "Ban"
<bansuri@web.de> wrote:
| Quote: | What it shows is an expectation bias .... people don't expect
dishonesty. Same goes for doing an "a-b" where the source is not
really switched, just seemingly so. Proponents say this "proves"
that things sound the same and that only expectation bias is at work.
I say the expectation bias overwhelms whatever differences do
exist...simply because people in either of these circumstances are
not expecting fraud.
Harry is right, to be sure about this matter it would be necessary to switch
from one player to the other level matched and compare them. This is easy
with digital (optical or coax) outputs as they will automatically create the
same level in the external DAC.
I use a Behringer "Ultramatch Pro" and it has an optical and a coax digital
input (along with a XLR AES/EBU) and a pushbutton to select the input on the
front panel. This makes an easy A/B tester.
|
Except that there is an expectation bias still - either the person is a
curmudgeon and thinks there is no audible difference and therefore isn't
going to hear one, or they are super gullible so will always hear a
difference.
Given human perceptions, and the nature of musical enjoyment, I am not sure
of any sort of testing (ABX, viewed, non viewed) that have any kind of
absolute relevance. |
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B&D
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:26 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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On 12/15/04 8:14 PM, in article cpqngq0a8r@news3.newsguy.com, "Steven
Sullivan" <ssully@panix.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Have you ever listened to top end hifi?
Have you ever heard of perceptual bias? Have you ever perceived a
strong audible difference only to realize that there *could not* have been
one,
because you hadn't really changed anything? Have you ever done
comparison of digital sources blind?
|
How about the other way - have you ever decided not to hear a difference
when everyone else could hear one and equipment could measure one?
Listening bias can work both ways - and blind testing while may be an
improvement in some ways, may not block against those that are biased
against hearing differences. |
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chung
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:26 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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B&D wrote:
| Quote: | On 12/15/04 8:17 PM, in article cpqnmu0ath@news3.newsguy.com, "Chung"
chunglau@covad.net> wrote:
BTW, since you agree that expectation bias needs to be removed if real
differences are to be discerned, why do you object to controlled testing
that removes expectation bias, such as DBT?
If you are biased against hearing a difference, how could DBT remove *that*
bias?
|
You are missing a key point. DBT's are most useful if someone believes
there is a difference, and is interested in finding out if the
difference is real. That's why so many of us ask the cable and the
stones believers to take a DBT. Note that no one asked Randi to take a
DBT; he is asking the reviewer who claimed differences to take it. DBT's
are the most accurate when someone is really trying hard to tell
differences. |
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michael
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:33 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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normanstrong wrote:
| Quote: | You're quite right. People don't expect fraud, and I agree that such
a test is not valid. I would not expect a person, under these
circumstances, to immediately say, "Hey, wait a minute, that doesn't
sound like my Sound Labs." So how long should it take a person to
uncover the fraud?
|
I was not trying to perpetrate fraud in my "test". I simply wanted to
hear what my Panasonic portable sounded like. What I thought interesting
was that we had a set up that no one would not consider 'high end'. I
mean, the mono amps by themselves (despite their goofy looking
appearance) cost as much as a high tech, high powered Italian motorcycle!
The conclusion: when a then 2 year old battery powered less than $100.00
CD player was inserted into the chain there was no recognition of this
fact by the owner. On this newsgroup I read about people who, owning
lesser high-end gear, write in a very casual and self-evident manner
that at any given time one cd player "blows away" another. That sure
wasn't our experience.
But, to answer your question--my guess is that if I could have somehow
placed the Panasonic into the expensive cd player the "fraud" would
never have been discovered. As I said, I think it is very easy to
delude oneself in these matters.
michael |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:33 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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B&D wrote:
| Quote: |
Given human perceptions, and the nature of musical enjoyment, I am
not sure
of any sort of testing (ABX, viewed, non viewed) that have any kind
of
absolute relevance.
|
Fortunately for the advancement of knowledge, the people who actually
study human perception take a somewhat different view. And I suspect
they know more about the subject than you do.
bob |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:33 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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B&D wrote:
| Quote: | On 12/15/04 8:17 PM, in article cpqnmu0ath@news3.newsguy.com, "Chung"
chunglau@covad.net> wrote:
BTW, since you agree that expectation bias needs to be removed if
real
differences are to be discerned, why do you object to controlled
testing
that removes expectation bias, such as DBT?
If you are biased against hearing a difference, how could DBT remove
*that*
bias?
|
Well, there is no evidence that people are "biased" against hearing
differences, in the sense that we've been using the term. But if you
mean that some people might be determined to attest to "no difference"
no matter what they actually hear, or if you think people might be so
sure there will be no difference that they won't bother listening very
closely before rendering a judgment, there's nothing we can do about
that--except find other subjects who aren't so predisposed. And they
are legion. Unfortunately, none of them seem interested in debunking
the debunkers.
bob |
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Steven Sullivan
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:17 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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|
Harry Lavo <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "michael" <pm279@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:cpo6220e7@news4.newsguy.com...
Kevin Smith wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about with half this stuff. However,
if
you can't tell the difference between a $20 Cd player and an ?1100 (yes,
real money) player, then perhaps an ear syringing could be in order!
Many years ago, I changed my NAD5440 CD player for a naim-audio CD3.5.
The
sonic difference was immediate. I regularly listen to a naim CDS. It
blows
my 3.5 out of the water. In fact, it's depressing when I return home and
have to listen to my system.
Have you ever listened to top end hifi?
Everyone has some anecdotes. A year ago a colleague had me over to his
house to listen to his new Sound Labs driven by something called a
Wolcott tube amplifier and an expensive French high end CD player whose
brand I cannot now recall. When he was out of the room and on a lark I
hooked up a portable Panasonic player I had with me in my sack. When he
came back Pat Barber was singing and my friend had no idea he was
listening to a 100 dollar portable. It's easy to fool yourself in these
matters.
What it shows is an expectation bias .... people don't expect dishonesty.
Same goes for doing an "a-b" where the source is not really switched, just
seemingly so. Proponents say this "proves" that things sound the same and
that only expectation bias is at work. I say the expectation bias
overwhelms whatever differences do exist...simply because people in either
of these circumstances are not expecting fraud.
|
Why would expectation bias overwhelm whatever differences do exist, in
a 'phantom switch' situation where no fraud is expected, but *not* in
a real comparison situation where no fraud is expected? The psychology
literature says that indeed it *is* operating in both
cases , and that's why it needs to be accounted for. Hence
blind protocols as the preferred means of gleaning truth.
Let's look at it another way:
From a skeptical POV, claims about the distinct 'sound' of
high-end cables, amps, transports have the same truth value
as the sort of 'fraud' perpetrated by a 'phantom switcher'.
If two things *actually* sound the same, there is no effective
difference between the 'trickster' who *knows* his claim of
difference is false, and the high-end marketer who sincerely
believes in the audible difference of his product.
--
-S
Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
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Nousaine
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:17 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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B&D bromo@ix.netcom.com wrote:
| Quote: | On 12/15/04 8:17 PM, in article cpqnmu0ath@news3.newsguy.com, "Chung"
chunglau@covad.net> wrote:
BTW, since you agree that expectation bias needs to be removed if real
differences are to be discerned, why do you object to controlled testing
that removes expectation bias, such as DBT?
If you are biased against hearing a difference, how could DBT remove *that*
bias?
|
There is little evidence that such a bias exists at least at as strong a level.
I've conducted an experimemt where subjects were given 10 pairs of short A/B
presentations and asked to express a preference for A or B or to have No
Preference.
5 of the presentations A and B were identical to each other and in the other 5
either A or B was 1-dB louder than the other.
There were 31 subjects ranging from female college students, men-in-the-street,
audio enthusiasts (one of who was a doctor who firmly believed that all amps
sound the same) and audio prfessionals who each listened singly over
headphones.
Surprisingly when A and B were identical subjects reported a "preference" for A
or B (instead of No Preference). There no signifcant differences between
subject vocation (including the person mentioned above). So AFAIAC the simple
act of comparison invokes expectation of differences which most probably
overrides no-difference bias. |
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Stewart Pinkerton
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:19 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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On 16 Dec 2004 02:47:42 GMT, B&D <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On 12/15/04 8:17 PM, in article cpqnmu0ath@news3.newsguy.com, "Chung"
chunglau@covad.net> wrote:
BTW, since you agree that expectation bias needs to be removed if real
differences are to be discerned, why do you object to controlled testing
that removes expectation bias, such as DBT?
If you are biased against hearing a difference, how could DBT remove *that*
bias?
|
You keep banging on about this, but have you ever heard of *anyone*
who is determined *not* to hear a difference? Essentially, it's
against human nature. Speaking for myself, I *still* hear differences
in sighted comparison of amplifiers which I *know* to be
indistinguishable in blind testing.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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---MIKE---
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:29 am Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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|
This is somewhat off topic but it shows how common self delusion is. A
friend has a satellite dish for TV. During a recent wind storm, the
dish was moved enough (It is on a 4 X 4 post set in the ground) so he
had no reception. A service tech came, set the post in concrete, and
re-aimed the dish. My friend insists that he now gets a much sharper
picture. This is not possible since with satellite systems, you either
have a picture or you don't. Quality is not an issue.
---MIKE--- |
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Nousaine
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject:
Re: CD Player Questions |
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|
michael pm279@bellsouth.net wrote:
| Quote: | normanstrong wrote:
You're quite right. People don't expect fraud, and I agree that such
a test is not valid. I would not expect a person, under these
circumstances, to immediately say, "Hey, wait a minute, that doesn't
sound like my Sound Labs." So how long should it take a person to
uncover the fraud?
I was not trying to perpetrate fraud in my "test". I simply wanted to
hear what my Panasonic portable sounded like. What I thought interesting
was that we had a set up that no one would not consider 'high end'. I
mean, the mono amps by themselves (despite their goofy looking
appearance) cost as much as a high tech, high powered Italian motorcycle!
The conclusion: when a then 2 year old battery powered less than $100.00
CD player was inserted into the chain there was no recognition of this
fact by the owner. On this newsgroup I read about people who, owning
lesser high-end gear, write in a very casual and self-evident manner
that at any given time one cd player "blows away" another. That sure
wasn't our experience.
But, to answer your question--my guess is that if I could have somehow
placed the Panasonic into the expensive cd player the "fraud" would
never have been discovered. As I said, I think it is very easy to
delude oneself in these matters.
michael
|
Sure; those who "believe:in high-end sound will argue with you as the day is
long but you've discovered the truth about CD sound. Don't ever ley some one
squeeze money out of you wallet chasing sound quality better than you already
have :-) |
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