| Author |
Message |
Jason Lavoie
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
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On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 05:34:40 GMT, "Mike" <no_mail@no_spam.com> wrote:
| Quote: | there isnt the budget for that.
OK, you've mentioned several times that you do not have the budget to do
the job correctly....
Do you have the budget to do it incorrectly?? I mean if you do
something now that's not right, you're only going to have to re-do it again
in the future. It's cheaper in the long run to find the resources to do it
right the first time.
FWIW, they say the average church ends up with three audio systems....
#1 - The originally speced system that typically gets cut back due to
budget cuts and cost over-runs. This system is OK, but never meets the
needs of the church because of the cutbacks.
#2 - This is the one where various people, of good intention, try to fix
the system with little or no resources. Typically the end result is worse
than #1.
#3 - Having realized that #2 doesn't meet the needs of the church, there
is a push to get a proper system installed that will meet the church's
immediate and future needs. Thus ending the process until the church's
needs change.
Mike Borkhuis
|
and most churches never quite get to #3 in my experience.. but when
they start talking about it then you know they mean business.
I almost never bother working with churches going after #1 for this
very reason.
Jason
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George Gleason
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
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Jason Lavoie wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 05:34:40 GMT, "Mike" <no_mail@no_spam.com> wrote:
there isnt the budget for that.
OK, you've mentioned several times that you do not have the budget to do
the job correctly....
Do you have the budget to do it incorrectly?? I mean if you do
something now that's not right, you're only going to have to re-do it again
in the future. It's cheaper in the long run to find the resources to do it
right the first time.
FWIW, they say the average church ends up with three audio systems....
#1 - The originally speced system that typically gets cut back due to
budget cuts and cost over-runs. This system is OK, but never meets the
needs of the church because of the cutbacks.
#2 - This is the one where various people, of good intention, try to fix
the system with little or no resources. Typically the end result is worse
than #1.
#3 - Having realized that #2 doesn't meet the needs of the church, there
is a push to get a proper system installed that will meet the church's
immediate and future needs. Thus ending the process until the church's
needs change.
Mike Borkhuis
and most churches never quite get to #3 in my experience.. but when
they start talking about it then you know they mean business.
I almost never bother working with churches going after #1 for this
very reason.
Jason
I help any one because of the chance that they will still need my |
services at some point
IMO it is always worth the effort to give a realistic and professional
proposal
I have to laugh (inside) at the ones that take my proposal, buy all the
gear I spec from some box house and then wonder why it doesn't work
IMO the most valuable thing I bring is experience and that is the one
thing they try to avoid paying for
George |
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Bob Urz
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
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George Gleason wrote:
| Quote: | Jason Lavoie wrote:
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 05:34:40 GMT, "Mike" <no_mail@no_spam.com> wrote:
there isnt the budget for that.
OK, you've mentioned several times that you do not have the budget
to do the job correctly....
Do you have the budget to do it incorrectly?? I mean if you do
something now that's not right, you're only going to have to re-do it
again in the future. It's cheaper in the long run to find the
resources to do it right the first time.
FWIW, they say the average church ends up with three audio systems....
#1 - The originally speced system that typically gets cut back due
to budget cuts and cost over-runs. This system is OK, but never
meets the needs of the church because of the cutbacks.
#2 - This is the one where various people, of good intention, try
to fix the system with little or no resources. Typically the end
result is worse than #1.
#3 - Having realized that #2 doesn't meet the needs of the church,
there is a push to get a proper system installed that will meet the
church's immediate and future needs. Thus ending the process until
the church's needs change.
Mike Borkhuis
and most churches never quite get to #3 in my experience.. but when
they start talking about it then you know they mean business.
I almost never bother working with churches going after #1 for this
very reason.
Jason
I help any one because of the chance that they will still need my
services at some point
IMO it is always worth the effort to give a realistic and professional
proposal
I have to laugh (inside) at the ones that take my proposal, buy all the
gear I spec from some box house and then wonder why it doesn't work
IMO the most valuable thing I bring is experience and that is the one
thing they try to avoid paying for
George
|
Yea, i have been on a number of "cattle calls" too. Sometimes i will
purposely make the quote generic so exact model numbers are NOT used
so someone will not box shop. They want to pay me for a design, they get
all the goods. If they are interested enough to ask questions, more
information will be provided. I have seen government and schools shop
these "Free" quotes. I don't think that's ethical. When they take your
"free" quote and use it as a "Pseudo consultants spec" that's over the line.
Of course on the flip side, i have seen consultants specs that were
ludicrous. Systems in churches and schools that had a X2 to X5 over
budget and still did not have the utility they needed. Too many
consultants have no field and operational chops to know what is really
needed. I recently heard of a spec locally for a steerable array in a
church that was over $200K. And not a Performance array. Wasted money
for the sake of technology.
Bob
Bob |
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E. Hill
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:08 am Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
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| Quote: | if i could afford new speakers then i could afford to hire someone
|
Then, I'd walk away from the technical ministry, and find a ministry where I
had the proper support of the church leadership.
I'll tell you a story that might change your perspective, and might help
others in the same situation...
I'd been taking care of the audio (and other technical services) for many
years... I've been going to one church ever since I got saved, which was in
1987. Few years ago, I was getting very tired of expectations not being in
line with reality. I was very frustrated. Not only for myself, but for the
congregation as a whole.
I put together a spreadsheet showing a 5 year plan, that would bring the
hardware up to "bottom level" professional. Basically, one step above MI
gear (mostly the junk you find at the "music" store). Although, some items
were mid-grade professional, and some were even high-end professional. The
equipment was in-line with the expectations. Cost was about $25,000. Then, I
found out how much we brought in annually, in tithes and offerings, and did
the math. I figured if 5% of the income was dedicated to this important
ministry, we'd do ok.
Next, I drew up a document explaining what the expectations were, and what
the results would be. Got the church council involved. The entire process
wasn't easy. There was some resistance. In any event, a couple months later,
I went into the meeting where the council was going to say, "Yes" or "No." I
wasn't hopeful, and I planned accordingly.
I took all my church keys, and put them on a single ring (they were with my
other personal keys). I took two resignation letters. One letter said I was
resigning entirely. The other said I was resigning, but would help train my
replacement. I was going to make the decision regarding which letter to use,
depending upon how they told me that this ministry wasn't important to them,
or the congregation.
I walked into the meeting. There was a couple of concessions, but basically
the outline and budget was approved. I was surprised, and pleased.
We opened a separate bank account in February 2001. In March, the deposits
started. Twice a week (we have services on Sunday and Wednesday), a deposit
is made for 5% of the tithes and offerings that came in during those
services.
Since 2001, we've had $26,000 in funds to work with. Not too shabby for a
church running 75 people right now.
There were some items I didn't think about. We were a portable church, and I
wasn't aware of how much cases cost. There have been some minor mistakes
made. Nothing major. Expectations have been in line with reality. I provide
a monthly report, showing where every dime is going.
Oh, btw... The major concession: I have to get approval for any single item
over $250. That requirement is odd to me, but it was the only major
concession. I wasn't one to argue much with it. (I can buy 10 items at $249,
but I have to get approval for anything over $250? Makes no sense.) The
other concession: I could not use any credit. All purchases had to be made
in cash. Good fiscal policy. But, that means I couldn't take advantage of
any sales or specials that arose. No big deal.
It is possible. To say you don't have the money probably isn't accurate. The
truth is, spending the money on audio equipment isn't a priority to the
leadership of the church. If you don't have their support, you don't have
much of a ministry, do you?
Something to think about.
Eric |
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mark devoll
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:19 am Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
|
|
that would be great do you have the money to do it. i dont
"George Gleason" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:fhvrd.80373$7i4.67730@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
| Quote: | mark devoll wrote:
again selling the mr speakers are not going to go anywhere.
Then I repeat this advice:
At the very least consider NOT hanging them but rather secureing them
with bolts through the cabinet to shelves built by a licesnsed
contractor
Ask your insurance carrier what they think about hanging MDF boxes with
no internal support, that the manufacture has not designed or rated for
overhead suspension over peoples heads
George |
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mark devoll
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:19 am Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
|
|
good idea and ill bring that up in the furute but something needs to be done
now. and this is what im going to have to do to make it so it sounds better.
i will try to go to a church board meeting and see of they go for it
"E. Hill" <anybody@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:GbWdnes4qKv5PjLcRVn-2A@adelphia.com...
| Quote: | if i could afford new speakers then i could afford to hire someone
Then, I'd walk away from the technical ministry, and find a ministry where
I
had the proper support of the church leadership.
I'll tell you a story that might change your perspective, and might help
others in the same situation...
I'd been taking care of the audio (and other technical services) for many
years... I've been going to one church ever since I got saved, which was
in
1987. Few years ago, I was getting very tired of expectations not being in
line with reality. I was very frustrated. Not only for myself, but for the
congregation as a whole.
I put together a spreadsheet showing a 5 year plan, that would bring the
hardware up to "bottom level" professional. Basically, one step above MI
gear (mostly the junk you find at the "music" store). Although, some items
were mid-grade professional, and some were even high-end professional. The
equipment was in-line with the expectations. Cost was about $25,000. Then,
I
found out how much we brought in annually, in tithes and offerings, and
did
the math. I figured if 5% of the income was dedicated to this important
ministry, we'd do ok.
Next, I drew up a document explaining what the expectations were, and what
the results would be. Got the church council involved. The entire process
wasn't easy. There was some resistance. In any event, a couple months
later,
I went into the meeting where the council was going to say, "Yes" or "No."
I
wasn't hopeful, and I planned accordingly.
I took all my church keys, and put them on a single ring (they were with
my
other personal keys). I took two resignation letters. One letter said I
was
resigning entirely. The other said I was resigning, but would help train
my
replacement. I was going to make the decision regarding which letter to
use,
depending upon how they told me that this ministry wasn't important to
them,
or the congregation.
I walked into the meeting. There was a couple of concessions, but
basically
the outline and budget was approved. I was surprised, and pleased.
We opened a separate bank account in February 2001. In March, the deposits
started. Twice a week (we have services on Sunday and Wednesday), a
deposit
is made for 5% of the tithes and offerings that came in during those
services.
Since 2001, we've had $26,000 in funds to work with. Not too shabby for a
church running 75 people right now.
There were some items I didn't think about. We were a portable church, and
I
wasn't aware of how much cases cost. There have been some minor mistakes
made. Nothing major. Expectations have been in line with reality. I
provide
a monthly report, showing where every dime is going.
Oh, btw... The major concession: I have to get approval for any single
item
over $250. That requirement is odd to me, but it was the only major
concession. I wasn't one to argue much with it. (I can buy 10 items at
$249,
but I have to get approval for anything over $250? Makes no sense.) The
other concession: I could not use any credit. All purchases had to be made
in cash. Good fiscal policy. But, that means I couldn't take advantage of
any sales or specials that arose. No big deal.
It is possible. To say you don't have the money probably isn't accurate.
The
truth is, spending the money on audio equipment isn't a priority to the
leadership of the church. If you don't have their support, you don't have
much of a ministry, do you?
Something to think about.
Eric
|
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Adair Winter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:19 am Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
|
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"mark devoll" <mark@devoll.org> wrote in message
| Quote: | good idea and ill bring that up in the furute but something needs to be
done
now. and this is what im going to have to do to make it so it sounds
better.
i will try to go to a church board meeting and see of they go for it
|
Alot of people die trying.
Adair |
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George Gleason
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:19 am Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
|
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mark devoll wrote:
| Quote: | that would be great do you have the money to do it. i dont
|
It's your neck, your better off doing nothing rather than endangering
the lives of your congregation
Hanging stuff over peoples heads is not something one as beligerant as
you should be involved in
you are rejecting solid advice from professionals with DECADES doing this
not only that
you getting snotty about it as well
perhaps you need your diaper changed
Piss off
george |
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Mike
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
|
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| Quote: | that would be great do you have the money to do it. i dont
|
We have read and understood your position. You have a less than
desirable sound that you're trying to improve with very limited resources.
What you seem to be missing is comprehension of the advice offered to
you. Trying to hang speakers not designed to be flown is a serious
liability issue that, in the opinions of the professionals that post here,
is NOT an acceptable risk to take. At any cost.
Mike Borkhuis |
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George Gleason
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
|
|
mark devoll wrote:
| Quote: | that would be great do you have the money to do it. i dont
"George Gleason" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:fhvrd.80373$7i4.67730@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
mark devoll wrote:
again selling the mr speakers are not going to go anywhere.
Then I repeat this advice:
At the very least consider NOT hanging them but rather secureing them
with bolts through the cabinet to shelves built by a licesnsed
contractor
Ask your insurance carrier what they think about hanging MDF boxes with
no internal support, that the manufacture has not designed or rated for
overhead suspension over peoples heads
George
Here is a clue |
all hanging hardware is serial numbered for traceability in case of a fail
Hanging boxes have internal steel structure that is engineered(and
certified by engineers) to accept the load of the box hung
do you know how to do the math to determine load at various angle
do you have a source for certified hardware
What about the load and stress on your building? unless your a degreed
engineer licesened in your local you have NO BUSINESS even considering
flying anything , ANYTHING!!!
when I fly I submitted blueprints to a mechanical engineering firm who
will examine my work and sign off on the spec , then I have a inspector
certify I have built to spec
you seem to think hanging is going to home depot and getting a hand full
of screw eye and chain
Home depot chain carries a HUGE warning label"NOT FOR LIFTING OR
OVERHEAD SUSPENSION"
You are about to dive into the deep end of the pool and we are shouting
LOOK OUT THERE IS NO WATER , but your toes are hanging over the edge of
the diving board and all your thinking about is the jump
you'd better consider the landing before you decide to jump
George |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
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|
"Mike" <no_mail@no_spam.com> wrote in message
news:Xi_rd.29388$Uf.1611@twister.nyroc.rr.com
| Quote: | "mark devoll" <mark@devoll.org> wrote in message
news:dOPrd.53424$QJ3.23779@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com
that would be great do you have the money to do it. i dont
|
Some things you just don't do unless you can do them right. Things like
brain surgery and hanging speakers in public places.
| Quote: | We have read and understood your position. You have a less than
desirable sound that you're trying to improve with very limited
resources. What you seem to be missing is comprehension of the
advice offered to you. Trying to hang speakers not designed to be
flown is a serious liability issue that, in the opinions of the
professionals that post here, is NOT an acceptable risk to take. At
any cost.
|
I hope and pray that Mark *gets it*. |
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Carlos Alden
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
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|
Hey, let us know the name and place of your church and I'll be sure not to
attend. I don't want 50 lb. speakers falling on my head.
Seriously - you don't grasp the potential problems. This is like using
power tools while standing on a slippery floor next to a bathtub full of
water. Not only will someone get hurt, possibly killed, but even Christians
sue, even if no one got hurt.
The church will fold. You, as the responsible party, will lose a great deal
to a damage suit. How will your family feel knowing that your
irresponsibility cost them the house and your kids' future education? How
will YOU feel? It's simply not worth the risk on many levels.
Carlos |
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Lincoln J. King-Cliby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:09 am Post subject:
Re: SPEAKER PLACMENT FOR A CHURCH |
|
|
"mark devoll" <mark@devoll.org> wrote in message news:<edvrd.52579$QJ3.1591@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
| Quote: | again selling the mr speakers are not going to go anywhere.
im in california
snip |
I concur with everyone eles's opnions on the subject. Don't.
This is one of those things where if you can't afford to do it
correctly, it absolutely, positiviely, shouldn't be done...
If you're in California, keep in mind that EVERYTHING you do MUST,
from my understanding, be siesmically rated so that in addition to not
falling on someone's head under normal circumstances, it won't fall on
their heads during an earthquake.
We have to shoot wires to true ceiling to tie the tiny little JBL
Control 26C/Control 26CTs to prevent them from bonking people in our
classrooms on the head during a siesmic event. They probably weigh AT
MOST about 1/10 of that you're thinking of.
Unless you're a licensed engineer, you have no business contemplating
this. When something bad happens (and WHEN not IF) the famli(ly/es)
affected are NOT going to appreciate "Well, sorry, but we didn't have
the money to do it any other way."
When it comes time for your inspection, if you're LUCKY, the inspector
will spot this issue and make you remove it. If he doesn't that's not
an excuse when it falls.
Remember the club fire back East a while ago... IIRC, the venue had
just used regular (non-fire-treated) foam because they couldn't/didn't
want to pay for the proper stuff for the job. Many people died. |
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