| Author |
Message |
Al
Guest
|
 Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:21 am Post subject:
Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
I'm about to embark on a new CD project. Last time around, I recorded the
guitars, vocals, etc. first, then at the very end of the project I recorded
the drums using the finished stereo mixes as guides.
That worked out OK but it was more a matter of necessity than a deliberate
strategy. When we started that project, there was no guarantee we'd get far
enough to need drum tracks. Thankfully we did, and were able to find a
drummer who could hop into an existing mix and handle it pretty well.
For this next project I'd like to build upward from a foundation of drums-if
that's the "best" way. I'd be interested to hear some comments from the
group about this.
I'm betting people have made both approaches work, so what I'm looking for
is some pros and cons that might help me make the best choice this time.
BTW, the music is in the James Taylor vein. sort of. Instrumentation will
consist of acoustic guitars, vocals and BGVs, some electric guitar fills and
solos, and bass. Some tunes will be purely acoustic, others will have more
of a full-band feel.
Thanks.
Alan
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rick hollett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:21 am Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
The dynamic is far superior if you can get the drums down with as many
players as possible. You are, after all, trying to create a live feeling.
Right away you know if the parts are working. We get best results from no
click, and let the time flow as it was intended. If it ain't "live", what is
it?"The arrangement can also be tweaked before you commit to anything.
Rick Hollett
Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cog4lm$3ab$1@panix2.panix.com...
| Quote: | Al <descriptor@comcast.net> wrote:
For this next project I'd like to build upward from a foundation of
drums-if
that's the "best" way. I'd be interested to hear some comments from the
group about this.
Some drummers are very good at playing to click and working with an
existing
mix. Most aren't. If you have found a skilled one who is, keep his card
on file and don't ever lose it.
BUT, if you build up from a drum track, you have to have your arrangement
fairly well planned out, at least if you intend on making drums an
important
part of the arrangement.
I have seen some folks record a simple rhythm track straight off, and then
later on add more embellished drum tracks later on.
I'm betting people have made both approaches work, so what I'm looking for
is some pros and cons that might help me make the best choice this time.
It depends more on the arranger and the drummer and how they are
comfortable
working.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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Scott Dorsey
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:21 am Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
Al <descriptor@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
For this next project I'd like to build upward from a foundation of drums-if
that's the "best" way. I'd be interested to hear some comments from the
group about this.
|
Some drummers are very good at playing to click and working with an existing
mix. Most aren't. If you have found a skilled one who is, keep his card
on file and don't ever lose it.
BUT, if you build up from a drum track, you have to have your arrangement
fairly well planned out, at least if you intend on making drums an important
part of the arrangement.
I have seen some folks record a simple rhythm track straight off, and then
later on add more embellished drum tracks later on.
| Quote: | I'm betting people have made both approaches work, so what I'm looking for
is some pros and cons that might help me make the best choice this time.
|
It depends more on the arranger and the drummer and how they are comfortable
working.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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| Back to top |
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Chris Whealy
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:23 am Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
Al wrote:
| Quote: | For this next project I'd like to build upward from a foundation of drums-if
that's the "best" way. I'd be interested to hear some comments from the
group about this.
|
There isn't necessarily a "best" way of doing it that can be guaranteed
to work every time. I've recorded things both ways round. I once had
to lay down drums to a piano track that was recorded without a click...
Ye gads, that was hard work following the ebbs and flows in the the
tempo! But I nailed it after about 15 takes!!
| Quote: | I'm betting people have made both approaches work, so what I'm looking for
is some pros and cons that might help me make the best choice this time.
|
If possible, plan out the arrangement so that you can sit all the
musicians down and record the whole thing in one go. If you can do
this, and the musicians are experienced, you may choose to dispense with
a click track for that more "live-at-the-gig" feel. However, the
likelihood is that you'll probably need a click.
If that isn't going to work for you because of musician availability or
whatever, then try laying down the foundational instruments first. This
would certainly be drums and bass guitar with possibly the piano or
rhythm guitar as well.
If your arrangement is such that you don't have things planned in
sufficient detail (i.e. a specific chart for the drummer), then get
whichever musicians you have to play to a click, then find yourself an
experienced drummer who can pick up the feel of an existing mix+click
| Quote: | BTW, the music is in the James Taylor vein. sort of. Instrumentation will
consist of acoustic guitars, vocals and BGVs, some electric guitar fills and
solos, and bass. Some tunes will be purely acoustic, others will have more
of a full-band feel.
|
My experience is much more on the drumming side than recording side, and
I know from 20 years experience (drumming, that is), that if the
foundation is solid (i.e. drums+bass guitar), then the other musicians
have a firm platform to build on. When you now add the melodic and
harmonic layers, you could drop the use of the click, and have the
additional musicians respond only to the mix.
I have done several recordings where the basic track was recorded to a
click, then the horns were added, but the horn players simply wanted to
here the mix without the click. On this occasion, it worked well, but YMMV.
If you're doing more rhythmically oriented or up tempo numbers, then
you'll need to have the drums and bass (+click) laid down first to act
as your reference. However, for less rhythmical numbers where the role
of the drums is more decorative than foundational, you could lay them
down later (again using a click as your master reference)
£0.025
Chris W
--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
-- |
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islander
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:23 am Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:25:34 GMT, "Al" <descriptor@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I'm about to embark on a new CD project. Last time around, I recorded the
guitars, vocals, etc. first, then at the very end of the project I recorded
the drums using the finished stereo mixes as guides.
If .... as in most rock.. the bass is electric and the rhythm guitar |
is electric... and if you can get enough isolation on the piano...
then lay down the basics first.. Click - Drums - Bass - Guitar and
piano. in this order of preference .. this is the basic rhythm.. and
the click and drums set the pace.. for overdubbing I usually playback
the click in the musicians left ear and the rest in their right. ( a
mix of the rest of the tracks ... with their own track (strings -
t-bones- congos- harp whatever ) .. outfront.
I record each subsequent track done separately for maximum isolation..
then if a track has to be taken out or ducked later for some reason
.... it is easy. Takes more time in the session but sure cuts mixtime
way down.
I first came across this plan when we had to record a theme for a TV
drama... the Theme had several melodies interwoven.. from different
instruments. different tracks... the theme off the top of the show
was a comp mix... and the rest of the shows music was taken as parts
out of this mix.. all separated out again.. It made nice continuity
of music for the whole show. One 3 min song did the music for a full
1/2 hr drama.
cheers
the Islander. |
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| Back to top |
|
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Mike Caffrey
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:11 pm Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
"Al" <descriptor@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<3tMqd.688799$8_6.433619@attbi_s04>...
| Quote: | I'm about to embark on a new CD project. Last time around, I recorded the
guitars, vocals, etc. first, then at the very end of the project I recorded
the drums using the finished stereo mixes as guides.
That worked out OK but it was more a matter of necessity than a deliberate
strategy. When we started that project, there was no guarantee we'd get far
enough to need drum tracks. Thankfully we did, and were able to find a
drummer who could hop into an existing mix and handle it pretty well.
For this next project I'd like to build upward from a foundation of drums-if
that's the "best" way. I'd be interested to hear some comments from the
group about this.
I'm betting people have made both approaches work, so what I'm looking for
is some pros and cons that might help me make the best choice this time.
BTW, the music is in the James Taylor vein. sort of. Instrumentation will
consist of acoustic guitars, vocals and BGVs, some electric guitar fills and
solos, and bass. Some tunes will be purely acoustic, others will have more
of a full-band feel.
Thanks.
Alan
The best way is to have everyone play togehter. |
Drum dynamics often dictates the feel of a song. The drummer should be
taking his cues from the vocals. So playing together works or drums
last works. Except a lot of players can't play wihtout the drums, so
now your back to drums first.
I've had great results doing acoustic guitar and vocals to a click and
then adding the drums with live bass and electric guitar. I might lean
towards drums in the middle or first half, but have the drummer play
to a reference that's as accurate as possible in showing the final
dynamics of the song. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Roger W. Norman
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:07 pm Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
And I have a couple of drummers on tap that can nail my piano playing down
within a couple of listens, so it's hard to say. Obviously the piano part
was hard to work with if it took 15 takes to get through it. Can't blame
the drummer I would think.
But to the OP, it's obvious that a song cannot and will not evolve over the
period of it's recording if one is stuck with a drum track. It's also just
as obvious that a song may well not sound live and introduce any intuitive
playing from others without a good drum track holding down the beat.
There are no rules but to not forget the rules. And those rules have
nothing to do with whether the drummer is there for the first take or the
last. They happen to pertain to correct mic selection and placement,
correct room for the recording, and good material and players to produce the
music.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
"Chris Whealy" <chris.whealy.NO@SPAMsap.com> wrote in message
news:cogk4h$cue$1@news.sap-ag.de...
Al wrote:
| Quote: | For this next project I'd like to build upward from a foundation of
drums-if
that's the "best" way. I'd be interested to hear some comments from the
group about this.
|
There isn't necessarily a "best" way of doing it that can be guaranteed
to work every time. I've recorded things both ways round. I once had
to lay down drums to a piano track that was recorded without a click...
Ye gads, that was hard work following the ebbs and flows in the the
tempo! But I nailed it after about 15 takes!!
| Quote: | I'm betting people have made both approaches work, so what I'm looking for
is some pros and cons that might help me make the best choice this time.
|
If possible, plan out the arrangement so that you can sit all the
musicians down and record the whole thing in one go. If you can do
this, and the musicians are experienced, you may choose to dispense with
a click track for that more "live-at-the-gig" feel. However, the
likelihood is that you'll probably need a click.
If that isn't going to work for you because of musician availability or
whatever, then try laying down the foundational instruments first. This
would certainly be drums and bass guitar with possibly the piano or
rhythm guitar as well.
If your arrangement is such that you don't have things planned in
sufficient detail (i.e. a specific chart for the drummer), then get
whichever musicians you have to play to a click, then find yourself an
experienced drummer who can pick up the feel of an existing mix+click
| Quote: | BTW, the music is in the James Taylor vein. sort of. Instrumentation will
consist of acoustic guitars, vocals and BGVs, some electric guitar fills
and
solos, and bass. Some tunes will be purely acoustic, others will have more
of a full-band feel.
|
My experience is much more on the drumming side than recording side, and
I know from 20 years experience (drumming, that is), that if the
foundation is solid (i.e. drums+bass guitar), then the other musicians
have a firm platform to build on. When you now add the melodic and
harmonic layers, you could drop the use of the click, and have the
additional musicians respond only to the mix.
I have done several recordings where the basic track was recorded to a
click, then the horns were added, but the horn players simply wanted to
here the mix without the click. On this occasion, it worked well, but YMMV.
If you're doing more rhythmically oriented or up tempo numbers, then
you'll need to have the drums and bass (+click) laid down first to act
as your reference. However, for less rhythmical numbers where the role
of the drums is more decorative than foundational, you could lay them
down later (again using a click as your master reference)
£0.025
Chris W
--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
-- |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:07 pm Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
| Quote: | Alan
The best way is to have everyone play togehter.
Drum dynamics often dictates the feel of a song. The drummer should be
taking his cues from the vocals. So playing together works or drums
last works. Except a lot of players can't play wihtout the drums, so
now your back to drums first.
|
Or a scratch drum track to start for everyone to play against then a
final drum track at the end.
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Michael
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:07 pm Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
In article <3tMqd.688799$8_6.433619@attbi_s04>, descriptor@comcast.net
says...
| Quote: | I'm about to embark on a new CD project. Last time around, I recorded the
guitars, vocals, etc. first, then at the very end of the project I recorded
the drums using the finished stereo mixes as guides.
That worked out OK but it was more a matter of necessity than a deliberate
strategy. When we started that project, there was no guarantee we'd get far
enough to need drum tracks. Thankfully we did, and were able to find a
drummer who could hop into an existing mix and handle it pretty well.
For this next project I'd like to build upward from a foundation of drums-if
that's the "best" way. I'd be interested to hear some comments from the
group about this.
|
From my point of view? Hmm, I have two, really. One: band.
If I'm working with a band, I try to get as good of a take from
everyone as possible. However, the drums have to be right, or
at least fixable ("I missed that crash.""It's okay, we can 'dub
*that* in."). Once I get a good drum track, I keep as much of
the other instruments as possible, and fix the mistakes, add
sweetening, whatever.
If I'm doing everything myself (I play a bunch of instruments),
then I plan out the arrangment, and record the drums FIRST.
This was a lesson learned from experience. If I do this, then
every OTHER instrument is getting time cues from the drums, and
locks with them. It then sounds like a band playing together.
If I do it the other way, with the drums following, it usually
does NOT sound like a band playing together.
In either case, the drums are what drives the band., and this
gets me the best results.
---Michael (of APP)... |
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RD Jones
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:08 am Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
Generally drums first, along with bass rhythym/acoustic and scratch vocal.
But I like to work live as much as possible.
Since most players "play well with others" but some don't-won't-can't work
effectively with a click it's better to have a good drum/bass lockup
before moving on. This is not as important with acoustic based stuff
where the guitar is the primary driving force.
Yes, both approaches can be made to work as you have proven.
I like to take inspiration from Hendrix - who would at times add drum
tracks later to guitar, or even replace drum tracks with another drummer.
Modern tech has made this easier, but I still feel that live drums or
drums first makes the most practical method.
Good Luck,
RD
"Al" <descriptor@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<3tMqd.688799$8_6.433619@attbi_s04>...
| Quote: | I'm about to embark on a new CD project. Last time around, I recorded the
guitars, vocals, etc. first, then at the very end of the project I recorded
the drums using the finished stereo mixes as guides.
That worked out OK but it was more a matter of necessity than a deliberate
strategy. When we started that project, there was no guarantee we'd get far
enough to need drum tracks. Thankfully we did, and were able to find a
drummer who could hop into an existing mix and handle it pretty well.
For this next project I'd like to build upward from a foundation of drums-if
that's the "best" way. I'd be interested to hear some comments from the
group about this.
I'm betting people have made both approaches work, so what I'm looking for
is some pros and cons that might help me make the best choice this time.
BTW, the music is in the James Taylor vein. sort of. Instrumentation will
consist of acoustic guitars, vocals and BGVs, some electric guitar fills and
solos, and bass. Some tunes will be purely acoustic, others will have more
of a full-band feel.
Thanks.
Alan |
|
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| Back to top |
|
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Al
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:09 am Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
Thanks to all for the responses.
Of course, my worst fears are realized--no two answers are alike. Darn,
there's no magic recipe!
Still, I'd say there's a slight leaning toward getting some kind of drum
track down early and replacing it later if necessary.
Expediency will play a role in this, too. If I can get a drummer in at the
start, then the drum tracks go down first. If not, then they're likely to be
the last thing completed.
At least one response made a distinction between working with a band and
working alone building up track by track. That might explain the disparity
of opinions about this. My situation is more akin to the solo performer. I'm
working with a songwriter and between the two of us, we'll be the "band."
Neither of us plays the drums. " So there's no opportunity to integrate a
drummer over a long period of working together. It's gonna be a pickup job
no matter who does it, or when.
Thanks again, everybody.
Alan
"RD Jones" <annonn@juno.com> wrote in message
news:e10fe7f1.0411301827.337e5a18@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | Generally drums first, along with bass rhythym/acoustic and scratch vocal.
But I like to work live as much as possible.
Since most players "play well with others" but some don't-won't-can't work
effectively with a click it's better to have a good drum/bass lockup
before moving on. This is not as important with acoustic based stuff
where the guitar is the primary driving force.
Yes, both approaches can be made to work as you have proven.
I like to take inspiration from Hendrix - who would at times add drum
tracks later to guitar, or even replace drum tracks with another drummer.
Modern tech has made this easier, but I still feel that live drums or
drums first makes the most practical method.
Good Luck,
RD
"Al" <descriptor@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<3tMqd.688799$8_6.433619@attbi_s04>...
I'm about to embark on a new CD project. Last time around, I recorded the
guitars, vocals, etc. first, then at the very end of the project I
recorded
the drums using the finished stereo mixes as guides.
That worked out OK but it was more a matter of necessity than a
deliberate
strategy. When we started that project, there was no guarantee we'd get
far
enough to need drum tracks. Thankfully we did, and were able to find a
drummer who could hop into an existing mix and handle it pretty well.
For this next project I'd like to build upward from a foundation of
drums-if
that's the "best" way. I'd be interested to hear some comments from the
group about this.
I'm betting people have made both approaches work, so what I'm looking
for
is some pros and cons that might help me make the best choice this time.
BTW, the music is in the James Taylor vein. sort of. Instrumentation
will
consist of acoustic guitars, vocals and BGVs, some electric guitar fills
and
solos, and bass. Some tunes will be purely acoustic, others will have
more
of a full-band feel.
Thanks.
Alan |
|
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| Back to top |
|
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David Morgan (MAMS)
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:11 pm Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
"Al" <descriptor@comcast.net> wrote in message news:L3crd.183684$R05.131907@attbi_s53...
| Quote: | Thanks to all for the responses.
Of course, my worst fears are realized--no two answers are alike. Darn,
there's no magic recipe!
|
It's to track the whole band at once... leaving only coloration as overdubs,
or nothing at all but perhaps vocals.
| Quote: | Still, I'd say there's a slight leaning toward getting some kind of drum
track down early and replacing it later if necessary.
|
Only if necessary.... that's the reason that cutting the entire rhythm section
at the same time makes the drums work when they're done "first". It seems
that the arrangement should be done, so not that much besides coloration
and embellishment will need to come later. The song is either finished and
ready to record or we're still writing... the latter means it will take too long to
get to the end of this thing. <g>
| Quote: | Expediency will play a role in this, too. If I can get a drummer in at the
start, then the drum tracks go down first. If not, then they're likely to be
the last thing completed.
|
Expediency... to me that would mean having a drummer, a rhythm guitar
and/or piano, a bass, and probably another fill instrument player along
with any scratch vocal, on site and cutting at least 4 rhythm tracks a day
for a weeks worth of days. Bingo, the songs are recorded and then you've
got all the timeyou want to embellish them, get perfect solos and vocals,
yadda, yadda...
| Quote: | At least one response made a distinction between working with a band and
working alone building up track by track. That might explain the disparity
of opinions about this. My situation is more akin to the solo performer. I'm
working with a songwriter and between the two of us, we'll be the "band."
Neither of us plays the drums. " So there's no opportunity to integrate a
drummer over a long period of working together. It's gonna be a pickup job
no matter who does it, or when.
|
Problem solved.... four guys lay the foundations, and two guys sweeten
things up until they think it's done. ;-)
Drums first... once you know what you want the song to be.
--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com |
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Tommy B
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:11 am Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
Hire professional musicians that work alot and you won't have that problem.
Tom
"John Washburn" <johnwashburn99@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GCprd.20867$ld2.7190454@twister.nyc.rr.com...
| Quote: |
"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote:
Problem solved.... four guys lay the foundations, and two guys sweeten
things up until they think it's done. ;-)
The only problem with that is on a long album project when you have the
rhythm section done in the first week and they keep showing up every day
for
the rest of the project out of a sense of duty (and to keep the singer
from
ruining everything) and, being bored musicians, get stoned all the time
and
generally wreak havoc. <g
-jw
|
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Tommy B
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:11 am Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
Hire the best bass player & drummer, you can find.
Once you get the pocket, it's easy to put more stuff in it.
Tom
"John Washburn" <johnwashburn99@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GCprd.20867$ld2.7190454@twister.nyc.rr.com...
| Quote: |
"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote:
Problem solved.... four guys lay the foundations, and two guys sweeten
things up until they think it's done. ;-)
The only problem with that is on a long album project when you have the
rhythm section done in the first week and they keep showing up every day
for
the rest of the project out of a sense of duty (and to keep the singer
from
ruining everything) and, being bored musicians, get stoned all the time
and
generally wreak havoc. <g
-jw
|
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Al
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:11 am Post subject:
Re: Drums first or drums last? |
|
|
| Quote: | Hire the best bass player & drummer, you can find.
|
In a way, this might be the best advice of all. Assuming I have "frozen"
arrangements (at least in terms of the big milestones in the song) to work
with, it would be very cool to get off to a roaring start with a punchy
rhythm thing.
| Quote: | Once you get the pocket, it's easy to put more stuff in it.
|
This sounds like something Duke Ellington or maybe Muddy Waters might've
said. Words to live by!
Alan
"Tommy B" <mrtomm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:_Jrrd.5207$u81.4073@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
| Quote: | Hire the best bass player & drummer, you can find.
Once you get the pocket, it's easy to put more stuff in it.
Tom
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