| Author |
Message |
Rupert
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:29 am Post subject:
E-drum stage amplification |
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I am trying to identify a good amp/speaker combination (e-drum sound system)
for an electronic drum set (Roland V-drums). I have read about and
researched many of the suggestions at Vdrums.com. Although well meaning, I
don't think many of the contributors are that knowledgeable. I have begun
to think that it's the blind leading the blind there and that the praise for
one system or another is based upon a small sample leading to the best of
the worst. I thought it might be useful to throw this out to some of those
in the biz.
My application is for a variety band that does weddings and country club
events (small rooms), and banquets and corporate events (medium sized
rooms). For larger events and outdoor gigs, we use a local sound company.
I am trying to put together a good sounding system that offers a flat
response, plenty of headroom, and the vigor to accommodate anything from
soft (background) music to medium loud (bar band) music.
I will use the sought after e-drum sound system as the source of the drum
sound on stage and for the audience. My goal is also to achieve a good
stage mix while projecting well into the house. We do not run the band
though a full spectrum FOH PA (yet). We run the entire band through a
mixing board, but send the instruments (including the drums) to left and
right back line speakers and the vocals to two Mackie SRM 450s facing out
along the front line. I am monitoring my e-drums through a floor wedge.
One common complaint is that the drums are not projecting into the house
when we get a good stage mix. If we turn the drums up, the vocalists have
trouble hearing their harmonies and the other instruments begin to
compensate by turn their volumes up. This leads inevitably to "stage volume
creep".
In-ear monitors are not an option because they are just too expensive. I
like the idea of the satellite/subwoofer type systems (Roland PM-3, dB
Technologies Entertainer S-400) for their flexibility and ease of
integration on small stages. But, some have commented that the mid-range is
weak and does not reproduce the tone of toms and snare drums well. Several
have sung the praises of small rolling cabinets like the Roland KC500 or the
Peavey KB4. These are nice because they have a built-in mixer, but they don't
reproduce the highs and lows well enough for my ears.
Any suggestions would be gladly accepted. I would like to keep the total
tab to + or - $1,000.
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Bob Sherunckle
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:29 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
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"Phildo" <Phil@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:30uusnF35rcqtU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
"Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xsrqd.168985$R05.163504@attbi_s53...
Any suggestions would be gladly accepted. I would like to keep the total
tab to + or - $1,000.
I was going to say HK ELIAS system but they are way out of your budget.
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Maybe a LUCAS then ? |
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Phildo
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:29 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
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"Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xsrqd.168985$R05.163504@attbi_s53...
| Quote: | Any suggestions would be gladly accepted. I would like to keep the total
tab to + or - $1,000.
I was going to say HK ELIAS system but they are way out of your budget. |
You will be lucky to get a system that fills your needs for that sort of
money. E-drums use a huge bandwidth from 20Hz to 20Khz and you really need
to up your budget if you want anything decent.
Phildo |
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Phildo
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:30 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
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"Bob Sherunckle" <zilspeed@beeteeopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:codmo5$6pb$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
| Quote: |
"Phildo" <Phil@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:30uusnF35rcqtU1@uni-berlin.de...
"Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xsrqd.168985$R05.163504@attbi_s53...
Any suggestions would be gladly accepted. I would like to keep the
total tab to + or - $1,000.
I was going to say HK ELIAS system but they are way out of your budget.
Maybe a LUCAS then ?
Still out of his budget I think you'll find. |
Anyway, for drums it really does need to be the ELIAS for all the extra low
end you need for kick and floor toms. I've used ELIAS stacks as drum fills
on much bigger shows before and drummers love them. I fitted two systems on
the ship I was working on and they really did work well - portable, easy to
set up, have monitor amps built into them as well, loud and sounded good
with very little EQ.
Phildo |
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Splat
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:30 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
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"Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xsrqd.168985$R05.163504@attbi_s53...
| Quote: | Any suggestions would be gladly accepted. I would like to keep the total
tab to + or - $1,000.
|
Trigger acoustics. :-)
I'm a pro drummer, playing for 27yrs, and came here a couple of years back
asking this same question you're asking. I have a ddrum3 kit (use real
cymbals) and a Tama Starclassic maple kit. At the time I wanted to use just
the ddrum3 and my cymbals. I remember some guys here recommended the HK
Lucas or Olias systems.... I can't remember which, but they were way above
my budget, and yours. I then cheapened out and went with (2) JBL Eon G2's
for my onstage sound and direct from ddrum3 into the FOH.
If you'll allow me.... The thing you must think about is cartage. Going the
edrums route can start to require a lotta sh*t to carry around and you're
gonna be wishing for roadies, friends, or bandmembers to help you. I then
went from using the ddrum3 to triggering my Tama Starclassic maple kit into
the ddrum3. The band heard my acoustics onstage while the crowd heard my
ddrum3's and mic'ed cymbals through the PA. For smaller gigs I used the
acoustics, micing the kick. The band's vocal mics picked up the rest enough
to get by. Nowadays I'm back to all acoustic, micing with Sennheiser e604's
on snare & toms, Audix D6 for kick, and whatever o/h mics the house
has...or I'll bleed through enough on the band's vocal mics and my drum
mics. I carry a lot less around these days and I'm happier for it.
---
Splat |
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Rupert
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:17 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
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Thanks Splat. Funny, but I'm coming to the same conclusions. There is way
too much stuff to lug around for this old back. I also use real cymbals and
I am beginning to entertain the notion of adding an acoustic snare. The
e-cymbals are not there yet and the e-snare is finicky. But, the toms and
bass drums, as well as the other percussion instruments, are excellent. We
cover a bunch of different styles and try to come as close to the original
as our instrumentation will allow. So, I will probably stick with this for
a while ... or at least until I get tired of slepping and tweaking :)
"Splat" <spamspamspamspam> wrote in message
news:p4mdnaVQjMZX9DfcRVn-oA@comcast.com...
| Quote: | "Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xsrqd.168985$R05.163504@attbi_s53...
Any suggestions would be gladly accepted. I would like to keep the total
tab to + or - $1,000.
Trigger acoustics. :-)
I'm a pro drummer, playing for 27yrs, and came here a couple of years back
asking this same question you're asking. I have a ddrum3 kit (use real
cymbals) and a Tama Starclassic maple kit. At the time I wanted to use
just
the ddrum3 and my cymbals. I remember some guys here recommended the HK
Lucas or Olias systems.... I can't remember which, but they were way above
my budget, and yours. I then cheapened out and went with (2) JBL Eon G2's
for my onstage sound and direct from ddrum3 into the FOH.
If you'll allow me.... The thing you must think about is cartage. Going
the
edrums route can start to require a lotta sh*t to carry around and you're
gonna be wishing for roadies, friends, or bandmembers to help you. I then
went from using the ddrum3 to triggering my Tama Starclassic maple kit
into
the ddrum3. The band heard my acoustics onstage while the crowd heard my
ddrum3's and mic'ed cymbals through the PA. For smaller gigs I used the
acoustics, micing the kick. The band's vocal mics picked up the rest
enough
to get by. Nowadays I'm back to all acoustic, micing with Sennheiser
e604's
on snare & toms, Audix D6 for kick, and whatever o/h mics the house
has...or I'll bleed through enough on the band's vocal mics and my drum
mics. I carry a lot less around these days and I'm happier for it.
---
Splat
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Rupert
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:17 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
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|
Thanks. Just for chuckles .... how much for the HK ELIAS?
"Phildo" <Phil@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:30v5qiF360vdoU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
"Bob Sherunckle" <zilspeed@beeteeopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:codmo5$6pb$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
"Phildo" <Phil@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:30uusnF35rcqtU1@uni-berlin.de...
"Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xsrqd.168985$R05.163504@attbi_s53...
Any suggestions would be gladly accepted. I would like to keep the
total tab to + or - $1,000.
I was going to say HK ELIAS system but they are way out of your budget.
Maybe a LUCAS then ?
Still out of his budget I think you'll find.
Anyway, for drums it really does need to be the ELIAS for all the extra
low end you need for kick and floor toms. I've used ELIAS stacks as drum
fills on much bigger shows before and drummers love them. I fitted two
systems on the ship I was working on and they really did work well -
portable, easy to set up, have monitor amps built into them as well, loud
and sounded good with very little EQ.
Phildo
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Splat
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:18 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
|
|
"Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uDvqd.170189$R05.45148@attbi_s53...
| Quote: | Thanks Splat. Funny, but I'm coming to the same conclusions. There is
way
too much stuff to lug around for this old back. I also use real cymbals
and
I am beginning to entertain the notion of adding an acoustic snare. The
e-cymbals are not there yet and the e-snare is finicky. But, the toms and
bass drums, as well as the other percussion instruments, are excellent.
We
cover a bunch of different styles and try to come as close to the original
as our instrumentation will allow. So, I will probably stick with this
for
a while ... or at least until I get tired of slepping and tweaking :)
|
If you have an acoustic kit already then I think your band would be better
off buying their own PA or powered speakers. Down the road you'll save money
instead of renting a PA all the time. Mic your kit sparingly. You don't have
to go crazy. I've played weddings before and just used a 3-piece with two
crashes, ride, hihats. I haven't done so but I would think renting a
soundman's mixing services would be cheaper than renting him and his whole
PA.
---
Splat |
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John S. Shinal
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:22 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
|
|
"Rupert" wrote:
| Quote: | like the idea of the satellite/subwoofer type systems (Roland PM-3, dB
Technologies Entertainer S-400) for their flexibility and ease of
integration on small stages. But, some have commented that the mid-range is
weak and does not reproduce the tone of toms and snare drums well. Several
have sung the praises of small rolling cabinets like the Roland KC500 or the
Peavey KB4. These are nice because they have a built-in mixer, but they don't
reproduce the highs and lows well enough for my ears.
|
I think you are on the right track with a sub+sat concept. I
have experimented a bit with my own Rolands, and find a compact bass
amp works fine for the lows, though not coming close to the extreme
low end they are actually capable of producing from the TD-x module.
I am currently looking for a nice neutral sounding pair of
satellites to power with a single space SS rack amp. I'm running it
through a mini-mixer anyway, so I can have separate sends for the
"stage" amp and the FOX sends.
Have you created custom voices, or are you using the stock
sets/tunings ? Once I actually tweaked the voices for each set's
components, I was a LOT happier with the sounds. It was quite a bit of
tweaking, of course... |
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Phildo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:22 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
|
|
"Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aHvqd.480544$D%.270707@attbi_s51...
| Quote: | Thanks. Just for chuckles .... how much for the HK ELIAS?
Not 100% sure on prices over there but they go for about £2000 here. |
Remember you get monitor amps built in for that as well, 2 subs, 2 tops. If
you buy another 2 tops or wedges then you already have the amps to drive
them. Really nice little system.
http://www.hkaudio.com/Portable/Active/elias/
Phildo |
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Rupert
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:23 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
|
|
"John S. Shinal" <jshinal_REMOVE_THIS_PART@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:41ad9621.1167839046@text-east.newsfeeds.com...
| Quote: | "Rupert" wrote:
like the idea of the satellite/subwoofer type systems (Roland PM-3, dB
Technologies Entertainer S-400) for their flexibility and ease of
integration on small stages. But, some have commented that the mid-range
is
weak and does not reproduce the tone of toms and snare drums well.
Several
have sung the praises of small rolling cabinets like the Roland KC500 or
the
Peavey KB4. These are nice because they have a built-in mixer, but they
don't
reproduce the highs and lows well enough for my ears.
I think you are on the right track with a sub+sat concept. I
have experimented a bit with my own Rolands, and find a compact bass
amp works fine for the lows, though not coming close to the extreme
low end they are actually capable of producing from the TD-x module.
I am currently looking for a nice neutral sounding pair of
satellites to power with a single space SS rack amp. I'm running it
through a mini-mixer anyway, so I can have separate sends for the
"stage" amp and the FOX sends.
Have you created custom voices, or are you using the stock
sets/tunings ? Once I actually tweaked the voices for each set's
components, I was a LOT happier with the sounds. It was quite a bit of
tweaking, of course...
|
I feel your pain J I, too, have spent way too much time tweaking. I have
built tweaked kits for the speaker system that I use, but they don't sound
as good "in the mix" while on stage. I have also built "headphone" kits and
recording "kits" for those purposes and I am satisfied with those endeavors.
I recognize that the e-drums may never sound as good as a recording, but I
would like to get them to sound similar to a well tuned acoustic drum set
on-stage. Some of the stock TD-20 instruments that I am using are among the
best that I have heard ... in terms of mimicking acoustic drums. I am
hoping to improve the "speakers" end of the audio chain. Then, more
tweaking .. |
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Splat
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:23 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
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|
"Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wTQqd.167888$HA.57466@attbi_s01...
| Quote: | I recognize that the e-drums may never sound as good as a recording, but I
would like to get them to sound similar to a well tuned acoustic drum set
on-stage. Some of the stock TD-20 instruments that I am using are among
the
best that I have heard ... in terms of mimicking acoustic drums. I am
hoping to improve the "speakers" end of the audio chain. Then, more
tweaking ..
|
Get a ddrum4 and you'll be done tweaking in ...at most 45minutes to 1hour,
and you'll have real drum samples that I've heard used in recordings that
you cannot tell it's ddrums. The real sampled drum sounds the ddrums use is
why though.
---
Splat |
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Rupert
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:23 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
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|
Yep. But the next step IS sampled drum sounds. We need something as
reliable and sturdy as a dedicated drum module to trigger them with lots of
memory and zero latency. I would love to get a chance to hear the ddrum4.
"Splat" <spamspamspamspam> wrote in message
news:G-2dnbP5zLR8QjbcRVn-sA@comcast.com...
| Quote: | "Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wTQqd.167888$HA.57466@attbi_s01...
I recognize that the e-drums may never sound as good as a recording, but
I
would like to get them to sound similar to a well tuned acoustic drum set
on-stage. Some of the stock TD-20 instruments that I am using are among
the
best that I have heard ... in terms of mimicking acoustic drums. I am
hoping to improve the "speakers" end of the audio chain. Then, more
tweaking ..
Get a ddrum4 and you'll be done tweaking in ...at most 45minutes to 1hour,
and you'll have real drum samples that I've heard used in recordings that
you cannot tell it's ddrums. The real sampled drum sounds the ddrums use
is
why though.
---
Splat
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Splat
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:07 pm Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
|
|
"Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tkTqd.690982$8_6.462124@attbi_s04...
| Quote: | Yep. But the next step IS sampled drum sounds. We need something as
reliable and sturdy as a dedicated drum module to trigger them with lots
of
memory and zero latency. I would love to get a chance to hear the ddrum4.
|
I don't think 0-latency will ever be possible. The ddrum3's latency is
1.6ms. You don't notice any latency at all, and the real sampled sounds are
killer. I will admit the ddrum4's "Mega Samples" that Clavia has on their
site for free are very, very good. Sure, you can do better samples with a
high-end sampler, but when you're talking an all-inclusive e-module the
ddrums is it. Clavia isn't a big company like Roland or Yamaha so the $
ain't there for advertisement.
--
Splat |
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Brandon Paluzzi
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:06 am Post subject:
Re: E-drum stage amplification |
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|
I wouldn't consider the ddrums an all-inclusive module.
It's a trigger->midi converter and a tone generator, that's all.
It doesn't do any sort of sequencing, velocity switching, or give any
sort of loop/drum machine functionality. Not that these things are
necessary, but there are modules out there that do all of this, and
more.
The Yamaha DTXtreme module performs all of the above functions, and
has the ability to input your own samples (like the ddrum). I'm
actually using some of the ddrum samples on mine =)
The ddrum is a VERY good module, if you want your electric drums to
sound like acoustics. If you want to expand the possibilities of what
it's possible to do on a drumset, you need a module more like the
Yamaha. Check out what guys like Akira Jimbo and Tony Verderosa are
doing with the Yamaha kits.
b
"Splat" <spamspamspamspam> wrote in message news:<zMmdnbQZy_VWGzHcRVn-rA@comcast.com>...
| Quote: | "Rupert" <Rup_de_Kat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tkTqd.690982$8_6.462124@attbi_s04...
Yep. But the next step IS sampled drum sounds. We need something as
reliable and sturdy as a dedicated drum module to trigger them with lots
of
memory and zero latency. I would love to get a chance to hear the ddrum4.
I don't think 0-latency will ever be possible. The ddrum3's latency is
1.6ms. You don't notice any latency at all, and the real sampled sounds are
killer. I will admit the ddrum4's "Mega Samples" that Clavia has on their
site for free are very, very good. Sure, you can do better samples with a
high-end sampler, but when you're talking an all-inclusive e-module the
ddrums is it. Clavia isn't a big company like Roland or Yamaha so the $
ain't there for advertisement. |
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