| Author |
Message |
Mike Rivers
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject:
Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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My PCM-501 that I used to record overnight radio programs has finally
died totally. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to fix it, but while
waiting for a service manual, I invested $11.95 in the often
recommended Total Recorder program. It's probably the best small money
I've spent on software. Does what it's supposed to do (in this case,
start up at a preset time, record from the radio to my computer, and
shut off at a preset time) and doesn't seem to cause any harm to
anything else running on the computer. (Small disclaimer - this is the
"office" computer, not used for critical audio work)
Anyway, just to conserve disk space, I decided to go the MP3 route
rather than the full glorious CD quality that the built-in sound card
in my four year old Dell Optiplex is capable of. I have Total Recorder
set up to use the LAME encoder (that's the one that seems to come up
often around here) rather than its built-in encoder, and I started out
with it set for 128 kbps.
Now I guess it's no surprise to those of you who have been living with
MP3 for a while, but this was my first experience actually comparing
the real thing (the radio) with an MP3 recording, on the same
speakers, in the same room. I wasn't surprised that I could hear a
difference, but even for casual listening (speakers are Minimum 7s)
it's a bit mushy. Program material is bluegrass, a lot of it from old
recordings, even some 78s, broadcast over FM radio (so fidelity going
in is pretty low, but with noises that perceptual encoders don't usually
have to deal with).
So, for those of you who have dealt with "MP3 sucks" can you give me
any advice as to minimum decent encoding rates, or option that I
shoudl be aware of? I've just used fixed rate so far. I don't want to
make a big research project out of this, as basically I'm doing it for
time shifting, I'll listen during the week when I'm barely paying
attention, sitting at the computer doing something else, and then I'll
delete the files and record the next week's show. Alternately, I might
move the files over to the Jukebox 3 to listen to on an airplane. So
there's no real high fidelity requirement here, just somethign that
doesn't make me wish I could "tune in the station a little better"
like we did in the old days when radios had tuning knobs.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
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Pooh Bear
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
| Quote: | My PCM-501 that I used to record overnight radio programs has finally
died totally. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to fix it, but while
waiting for a service manual, I invested $11.95 in the often
recommended Total Recorder program. It's probably the best small money
I've spent on software. Does what it's supposed to do (in this case,
start up at a preset time, record from the radio to my computer, and
shut off at a preset time) and doesn't seem to cause any harm to
anything else running on the computer. (Small disclaimer - this is the
"office" computer, not used for critical audio work)
Anyway, just to conserve disk space, I decided to go the MP3 route
rather than the full glorious CD quality that the built-in sound card
in my four year old Dell Optiplex is capable of. I have Total Recorder
set up to use the LAME encoder (that's the one that seems to come up
often around here) rather than its built-in encoder, and I started out
with it set for 128 kbps.
Now I guess it's no surprise to those of you who have been living with
MP3 for a while, but this was my first experience actually comparing
the real thing (the radio) with an MP3 recording, on the same
speakers, in the same room. I wasn't surprised that I could hear a
difference, but even for casual listening (speakers are Minimum 7s)
it's a bit mushy. Program material is bluegrass, a lot of it from old
recordings, even some 78s, broadcast over FM radio (so fidelity going
in is pretty low, but with noises that perceptual encoders don't usually
have to deal with).
So, for those of you who have dealt with "MP3 sucks" can you give me
any advice as to minimum decent encoding rates, or option that I
shoudl be aware of? I've just used fixed rate so far. I don't want to
make a big research project out of this, as basically I'm doing it for
time shifting, I'll listen during the week when I'm barely paying
attention, sitting at the computer doing something else, and then I'll
delete the files and record the next week's show. Alternately, I might
move the files over to the Jukebox 3 to listen to on an airplane. So
there's no real high fidelity requirement here, just somethign that
doesn't make me wish I could "tune in the station a little better"
like we did in the old days when radios had tuning knobs.
|
I'd use the highest bit rate possible ( usually 320k ).
I was intruiged to note when I bought a certain CD that I had auditioned
certain tracks in mp3 format that there were quiet vocals where I hadn't
noticed them before ! I guess the encoder considered they were 'masked' by
the rest of the music.
Graham |
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play-on
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:24 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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I'd stick with at least a 256k bitrate.
Al
On 28 Nov 2004 12:27:07 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrote:
| Quote: |
My PCM-501 that I used to record overnight radio programs has finally
died totally. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to fix it, but while
waiting for a service manual, I invested $11.95 in the often
recommended Total Recorder program. It's probably the best small money
I've spent on software. Does what it's supposed to do (in this case,
start up at a preset time, record from the radio to my computer, and
shut off at a preset time) and doesn't seem to cause any harm to
anything else running on the computer. (Small disclaimer - this is the
"office" computer, not used for critical audio work)
Anyway, just to conserve disk space, I decided to go the MP3 route
rather than the full glorious CD quality that the built-in sound card
in my four year old Dell Optiplex is capable of. I have Total Recorder
set up to use the LAME encoder (that's the one that seems to come up
often around here) rather than its built-in encoder, and I started out
with it set for 128 kbps.
Now I guess it's no surprise to those of you who have been living with
MP3 for a while, but this was my first experience actually comparing
the real thing (the radio) with an MP3 recording, on the same
speakers, in the same room. I wasn't surprised that I could hear a
difference, but even for casual listening (speakers are Minimum 7s)
it's a bit mushy. Program material is bluegrass, a lot of it from old
recordings, even some 78s, broadcast over FM radio (so fidelity going
in is pretty low, but with noises that perceptual encoders don't usually
have to deal with).
So, for those of you who have dealt with "MP3 sucks" can you give me
any advice as to minimum decent encoding rates, or option that I
shoudl be aware of? I've just used fixed rate so far. I don't want to
make a big research project out of this, as basically I'm doing it for
time shifting, I'll listen during the week when I'm barely paying
attention, sitting at the computer doing something else, and then I'll
delete the files and record the next week's show. Alternately, I might
move the files over to the Jukebox 3 to listen to on an airplane. So
there's no real high fidelity requirement here, just somethign that
doesn't make me wish I could "tune in the station a little better"
like we did in the old days when radios had tuning knobs. |
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Bob Smith
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:27 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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|
"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1101652586k@trad...
| Quote: | So, for those of you who have dealt with "MP3 sucks" can you give me
any advice as to minimum decent encoding rates, or option that I
shoudl be aware of? I've just used fixed rate so far.
|
Use the highest bit rate available and enable variable bit rate encoding.
That should minimize the damage.
bobs
Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com |
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Ricky W. Hunt
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:28 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1101652586k@trad...
Using this: http://users.pandora.be/satcp/cd2mp3-en.htm#contents I was able
to get a setup that gives me MP3's that are practically impossible to tell
in blind listening tests (for most music) from the original CD with
resultant files that were anywhere from 1/5 to 1/10 their original size. |
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Ricky W. Hunt
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:28 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41AA1587.277BEC84@hotmail.com...
| Quote: |
I'd use the highest bit rate possible ( usually 320k ).
I was intruiged to note when I bought a certain CD that I had auditioned
certain tracks in mp3 format that there were quiet vocals where I hadn't
noticed them before ! I guess the encoder considered they were 'masked' by
the rest of the music.
|
The lower rates really while shift stuff around as far as perceivability. I
use the highest rates from home listening but actually prefer 128k for the
car as it helps "get above" the ambient noise. |
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Ricky W. Hunt
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:28 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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"Bob Smith" <rsmith@1nospam2.bsstudios.com> wrote in message
news:MbadnWzqxNqmrDfcRVn-qg@comcast.com...
| Quote: |
Use the highest bit rate available and enable variable bit rate encoding.
That should minimize the damage.
|
Those two are a must and will produce output practically indiscernible from
the CD (in most cases). |
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Carey Carlan
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:14 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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|
I posted a couple of 256Kbps samples on my website using Fraunhofer
encoding. It's licensed (not free) but makes excellent recordings without
resorting to variable bit rate (which a few players can't reproduce).
Hear it here:
http://ccarlan.home.mindspring.com/B6.html
I've used Lame before and I think it's good, but I believe (with no real
side by side comparisons) that Fraunhofer is better. |
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Mike Rivers
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:15 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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In article <MbadnWzqxNqmrDfcRVn-qg@comcast.com> rsmith@1nospam2.bsstudios.com writes:
| Quote: | Use the highest bit rate available and enable variable bit rate encoding.
That should minimize the damage.
|
I'll have to check the Jukebox to see what it will (or won't) play. It
records up to 320 kbps, so I guess it will play that. When I copied
PCM tapes to the Jukebox, I usually used 192 kbps and that sounded OK
on headphones on the airplane.
Does the decoder need to be smart enough to play a variable bit rate
encoded file?
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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Bob Smith
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:15 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
|
|
"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1101677588k@trad...
| Quote: |
In article <MbadnWzqxNqmrDfcRVn-qg@comcast.com
rsmith@1nospam2.bsstudios.com writes:
Use the highest bit rate available and enable variable bit rate
encoding.
That should minimize the damage.
I'll have to check the Jukebox to see what it will (or won't) play. It
records up to 320 kbps, so I guess it will play that. When I copied
PCM tapes to the Jukebox, I usually used 192 kbps and that sounded OK
on headphones on the airplane.
Does the decoder need to be smart enough to play a variable bit rate
encoded file?
|
Yes it does. If the decoder can't play VBR then you must restrict yourself
to CBR encoding.
bobs
Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com |
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Kurt Albershardt
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:16 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
|
|
Carey Carlan wrote:
| Quote: | I posted a couple of 256Kbps samples on my website using Fraunhofer
encoding. It's licensed (not free) but makes excellent recordings without
resorting to variable bit rate (which a few players can't reproduce).
Hear it here:
http://ccarlan.home.mindspring.com/B6.html
I've used Lame before and I think it's good, but I believe (with no real
side by side comparisons) that Fraunhofer is better.
|
I agree (at lower bitrates.) LAME sounds better to me at higher bitrates. |
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Kurt Albershardt
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:16 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
| Quote: |
Does the decoder need to be smart enough to play a variable bit rate
encoded file?
|
Yes, and the JB3 will handle VBR files. |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:16 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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|
Mike Rivers wrote:
| Quote: | In article <MbadnWzqxNqmrDfcRVn-qg@comcast.com> rsmith@1nospam2.bsstudios.com writes:
Use the highest bit rate available and enable variable bit rate encoding.
That should minimize the damage.
I'll have to check the Jukebox to see what it will (or won't) play. It
records up to 320 kbps, so I guess it will play that. When I copied
PCM tapes to the Jukebox, I usually used 192 kbps and that sounded OK
on headphones on the airplane.
Does the decoder need to be smart enough to play a variable bit rate
encoded file?
|
Yes but haven't found one in years that didn't.
The ancient Fraunhofer codec I have on my old W3.1 pc doesn't decode vbr IIRC.
Incidentally - heard many claims about the relative accuracy of *encoders* but are all
*decoders* created equal ?
Graham |
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Bob Smith
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:16 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
|
|
"Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95AFCDF91C37Agulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.189.191...
| Quote: |
I've used Lame before and I think it's good, but I believe (with no real
side by side comparisons) that Fraunhofer is better.
|
I agree with Carey on this. Fraunhofer has the encoding best algorithms at
this time in my opinion.
bobs
Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com |
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Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:16 am Post subject:
Re: Musings from an MP3 Newbie |
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|
Mike, I've found that 128Kbps is pretty good for my middle of the
road Cambridge Soundworks speakers for casual listening. Give the
"joint stereo" option a try on the encoding and see if you can hear a
difference vs. true stereo encoding. (It's supposed to put more
detail into the channel that needs it most) and experiment with
average or variable bitrate options. I've found 128Kbps average
bitrate with joint stereo to be pretty good for general web
distribution.
You may try a different converter at 128Kbps on a normal wav file to
see if it's really the 128Kbps that sucks, or whether it's the
conversion of radio source that sucks.
Shane
(btw, the files on my artist page in the link in the sig file are
128Kbps from 16bit wav for reference)
=========================
Visit my artist page at Unsignedbandweb.com
http://www.unsignedbandweb.com/music/bands/1424/
or visit my mp3 streaming radio stations here:
http://www.unsignedbandweb.com/music/bands/1424/radio.php
On 28 Nov 2004 12:27:07 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrote:
| Quote: |
So, for those of you who have dealt with "MP3 sucks" can you give me
any advice as to minimum decent encoding rates, or option that I
shoudl be aware of? I've just used fixed rate so far. I don't want to
make a big research project out of this, as basically I'm doing it for
time shifting, I'll listen during the week when I'm barely paying
attention, sitting at the computer doing something else, and then I'll
delete the files and record the next week's show. Alternately, I might
move the files over to the Jukebox 3 to listen to on an airplane. So
there's no real high fidelity requirement here, just somethign that
doesn't make me wish I could "tune in the station a little better"
like we did in the old days when radios had tuning knobs.
|
=========================
Visit me at my artist page at Unsignedbandweb.com
http://www.unsignedbandweb.com/music/bands/1424/
and visit my streaming mp3 radio stations here:
http://www.unsignedbandweb.com/music/bands/1424/radio.php |
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