| Author |
Message |
George Gleason
Guest
|
 Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:29 pm Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
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Mike wrote:
| Quote: | Altoona-Johnstown area.
Small world... Did Olivia Newton John in Williamsport then Smokey
Robinson in Indiana. Drove right past you. =)
Mike Borkhuis
|
Mike who you working for now
last we knew you and sabastian had parted ways
George
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Mike
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:51 pm Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
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| Quote: | Mike who you working for now
last we knew you and sabastian had parted ways
|
The short version is that I'm back working for Sebastian.
For those that don't know, he owns a company called Audio Images Sound &
Lighting that is based out of Rochester, NY.
Mike Borkhuis |
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Chad Wahls
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:06 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
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| Quote: |
What rating gennie are you going for btw ? Is running it on propane less
expensive ?
Most gasoline engines can be converted to propane for cheap and they are |
somewhat plentiful in my old field of work. I was a broadcast engineer.
Most of the corporate bought plants have decided to ditch the gasoline and
go to a deisel generator and power the whole plant as opposed to the studios
and transmitters. I live in a rural area or I would go with natural gas,
there isn't even a pipeline in my small town of 150 people. Gasoline is
unstable after a period of time and our weather here is such that
condensation would certainly form in the tank. Propane is more money than
natural gas and the tanks need to be watched for level but it's worth it for
me to be able to keep my family safe and comfortable in an emergency. We
will have ice and snow for a few months then it's tornado season. Last
summer I was without electricity for almost two weeks! There wasn't a power
pole standing within 3 miles of my town. The station I worked for just got
rid of their Onan for the price of transportation and title transfer. It
would power my house and both my neighbor's. I will probably be nice and
offer to let my neighbor tap off if I get one that large. After all it is
his power running our shared well pump. Water would be nice :) He'll just
have to pay for the transfer switch :) Too bad I missed out on that deal, I
lived in the city then.
Chad |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:06 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
Chad Wahls wrote:
| Quote: | "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41ACC51D.715D8C4C@hotmail.com...
Electricity isn't widely used for space heating in the UK - and probably
true
for most of Europe too so large kWs aren't needed. Electricity here is
also
pricey.
Natural gas is the normal choice here for heating. If you're not near a
gas main
such as in the country - the next obvious choice is Oil.
Graham
I've been in this new location for a few months now, it is ALL electric
where as my old home had natural gas for everything. I absolutely hate
cooking on an electric stove. I am geting ready to purchase a backup
generator which, runs on propane. I will buy a gas stove then! We had an
ice storm last Wednesday and I had no power for 4 hours. That gennie is
going to be parked soon!!!
Chad
|
I'm pretty much with you about cooking. Especially the hobs. No substitute for
being able to turn the flame up/down and get a near instant result.
Electric ovens aren't so bad though. A popular choice here currently is indeed a
gas hob with an electric oven.
Gas also does have the edge for reliability of supply. Especially in storms.
Although most gas central heating systems here wouldn't function if you lose the
electricity since the pump wouldn't run.
What rating gennie are you going for btw ? Is running it on propane less
expensive ?
Graham |
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Chad Wahls
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:06 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41ACC51D.715D8C4C@hotmail.com...
| Quote: | Chad Wahls wrote:
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41ABD23E.3130F26A@hotmail.com...
Chad Wahls wrote:
"Phildo" <Phil@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:311ecoF35c47gU1@uni-berlin.de...
I inherited a house recently and was surprised to find one of the
old
5A
round sockets in the front room, attached as part of a 13A ring main
though.
Phildo
So, I went and studied ring mains. I like the idea of things being
fed
from
each end, USA should pay closer attention to this.
Well.... UL is having to come round.
I don't think it's any accident that UL1950 and IEC950 have more than a
passing
similarity in the standard number. European countries use the
'localised'
EN60950. It's even called BSEN60950 for the UK ! We didn't want to lose
that
'Britsih Standard' bit. :-)
Now I have a question. Does the average European home have 230/230
coming
in for a grand total of 460 available or do they just have one 230V
"leg"
Just one live leg. You get live, neutral and earth ( ground ).
Depending
on how
and when the power was put in, the earth may be bonded to neutral or
taken
spearately back to the substation.
A home supply is normally 60 amps in the UK. According to Tim it's 63
amps
now -
probably the result of more 'harmonisation' but my 'company fuse' is
still
60 A.
Do large factories have 3 phase? What's that voltage? Do the
factories
have 460 available? Is there any voltage splitting going on like in
the
USA?
Typical industrial unit is 3 phases of 240 V in the UK ( until it ever
gets
changed to 230 V ) called red, blue and yellow @ 100 amps per phase
with
415 V
phase to phase voltage.
There's 440 V for heavier industrial use.
I sincerely apologize for being an ignorant American. I find this
fascinating and would like to brush up on international electrical
standards. One never knows when it will come in handy.
Thanks for the interest.
Graham
As Eric pointed out a single 60A into any home in the USA would be a
no-fly
even at 240. Your company fuse allows you to draw 14,400 Watts. I had a
dual 60 in my OLD home (equiv to EU standard) and it HAD to be updated to
a
minimal dual 100 in order for me to get a loan that's 24,000 watts. My
new
home has two 200A/leg panels, granted it's a serious overbuild but it
powers
quite a bit. My total draw can safely be 96,000 watts! So in europe I
would
have the equivalent of a 400A company fuse. I also have a seperate HT
feed
coming to my home and my own "pole pig" My "company fuse" resides on the
HT
side of the pig.
A ring system of distribution would be ideal but would drive up the costs
of
wiring, especially in larger homes. What is the amperage of the company
fuse in larger homes in europe?
I'll guess that the next upgrade would be 100 amps.
Electricity isn't widely used for space heating in the UK - and probably
true
for most of Europe too so large kWs aren't needed. Electricity here is
also
pricey.
Natural gas is the normal choice here for heating. If you're not near a
gas main
such as in the country - the next obvious choice is Oil.
Graham
|
I've been in this new location for a few months now, it is ALL electric
where as my old home had natural gas for everything. I absolutely hate
cooking on an electric stove. I am geting ready to purchase a backup
generator which, runs on propane. I will buy a gas stove then! We had an
ice storm last Wednesday and I had no power for 4 hours. That gennie is
going to be parked soon!!!
Chad |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pooh Bear
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:06 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
Chad Wahls wrote:
| Quote: | "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41ABD23E.3130F26A@hotmail.com...
Chad Wahls wrote:
"Phildo" <Phil@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:311ecoF35c47gU1@uni-berlin.de...
I inherited a house recently and was surprised to find one of the old
5A
round sockets in the front room, attached as part of a 13A ring main
though.
Phildo
So, I went and studied ring mains. I like the idea of things being fed
from
each end, USA should pay closer attention to this.
Well.... UL is having to come round.
I don't think it's any accident that UL1950 and IEC950 have more than a
passing
similarity in the standard number. European countries use the 'localised'
EN60950. It's even called BSEN60950 for the UK ! We didn't want to lose
that
'Britsih Standard' bit. :-)
Now I have a question. Does the average European home have 230/230
coming
in for a grand total of 460 available or do they just have one 230V "leg"
Just one live leg. You get live, neutral and earth ( ground ). Depending
on how
and when the power was put in, the earth may be bonded to neutral or taken
spearately back to the substation.
A home supply is normally 60 amps in the UK. According to Tim it's 63 amps
now -
probably the result of more 'harmonisation' but my 'company fuse' is still
60 A.
Do large factories have 3 phase? What's that voltage? Do the factories
have 460 available? Is there any voltage splitting going on like in the
USA?
Typical industrial unit is 3 phases of 240 V in the UK ( until it ever
gets
changed to 230 V ) called red, blue and yellow @ 100 amps per phase with
415 V
phase to phase voltage.
There's 440 V for heavier industrial use.
I sincerely apologize for being an ignorant American. I find this
fascinating and would like to brush up on international electrical
standards. One never knows when it will come in handy.
Thanks for the interest.
Graham
As Eric pointed out a single 60A into any home in the USA would be a no-fly
even at 240. Your company fuse allows you to draw 14,400 Watts. I had a
dual 60 in my OLD home (equiv to EU standard) and it HAD to be updated to a
minimal dual 100 in order for me to get a loan that's 24,000 watts. My new
home has two 200A/leg panels, granted it's a serious overbuild but it powers
quite a bit. My total draw can safely be 96,000 watts! So in europe I would
have the equivalent of a 400A company fuse. I also have a seperate HT feed
coming to my home and my own "pole pig" My "company fuse" resides on the HT
side of the pig.
A ring system of distribution would be ideal but would drive up the costs of
wiring, especially in larger homes. What is the amperage of the company
fuse in larger homes in europe?
|
I'll guess that the next upgrade would be 100 amps.
Electricity isn't widely used for space heating in the UK - and probably true
for most of Europe too so large kWs aren't needed. Electricity here is also
pricey.
Natural gas is the normal choice here for heating. If you're not near a gas main
such as in the country - the next obvious choice is Oil.
Graham |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tim S Kemp
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:12 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
I had some UPS running in central london (on the mall) and the
monitoring software showed late night voltages over 260 and mid morning
down to 210 or lower... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jakdedert
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:12 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41AA39F5.375E7EA8@hotmail.com...
| Quote: | Dale Farmer wrote:
snip
Get thee to the NEMA web site, where they have all sorts
of information on US standard power connectors. Also get to
the UL ( Underwriters Laboratories ) site and learn from it. As
a practical matter, you are probably going to have to pass the
UL criteria for listing in order to sell in the US market.
No problem. I'm familiar with some of the various connector variants.
Kinda been there, done
that.
|
Been where; done what? If you're selling electrical gear in the States, you
(or your engineers) have to be *intimately* familiar with all of the
connector variants that you are likely to need. Then you're going to need
to have your final design tested and apporved by the UL (not a legal
requirement, IIRC, but certainly a 'must').
| Quote: |
Just trying to establish what an average gigging band is likely to come
across when they play
a typical pub or club gig.
|
Good. I think you got that....
| Quote: |
The hire co's will know about distros and stuff. 'cos that's their job !
Our product is
typically more likely to be used by bands with their own rigs.
|
I think you're going out on a limb here. If you sell something which is
going to be marginal for it's intended use, you'll get a bad reputation
which is perhaps undeserved from the standpoint of quality.
| Quote: |
What I'm getting at here is - suppose you have a 'substantial' amp or
two - take QSC's RMX
2450 and 4050 for example. If you drive it hard into low impedances (
recall we had someone
here who wanted to run 1 ohm loads ! ) are you going to trip a 15A
internal breaker in
practice ?
|
Being a manufacturer, you should have testing capabilities in-house to
determine that. Transformers (220-110) are not that expensive; and I expect
you'd want to do extensive testing on your new power supply in simulated
real-world applications before turning it loose on the country in
question...and then doing 'real' real-world testing here in the States
before marketing.
| Quote: | 15A being the max since it's clearly apparent from the response to date
that that
is indeed the 'standard' outlet - other than any fancy installations.
Nothing 'fancy' about it, but granted, not the rule. |
| Quote: | Btw. UL is coming into line with IEC regs now. Never had a problem ever
selling gear in the
US. If in doubt - City of LA approval seems to keep most ppl happy. Never
had to get
anything UL listed. We comply of course since we have to be CE compliant
which is pretty (
almost certainly more ) rigourous.
|
Don't know about that, but a little research would confirm. I don't recall
ever using any gear which didn't have the UL seal. I doubt that it's a good
idea to advertise here that you don't intend to seek it. It would make a
good advertising point for your competition....
jak
|
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|
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Pooh Bear
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:09 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
jakdedert wrote:
| Quote: | "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41AA39F5.375E7EA8@hotmail.com...
Dale Farmer wrote:
snip
Get thee to the NEMA web site, where they have all sorts
of information on US standard power connectors. Also get to
the UL ( Underwriters Laboratories ) site and learn from it. As
a practical matter, you are probably going to have to pass the
UL criteria for listing in order to sell in the US market.
No problem. I'm familiar with some of the various connector variants.
Kinda been there, done
that.
Been where; done what?
|
It's a well-used phrase meaning I know !
| Quote: | If you're selling electrical gear in the States, you
(or your engineers) have to be *intimately* familiar with all of the
connector variants that you are likely to need. Then you're going to need
to have your final design tested and apporved by the UL (not a legal
requirement, IIRC, but certainly a 'must').
|
No - it doesn't have to be UL, since it has no official legal standing. Any
recognised testing lab is ok. In the past, where required, we have gone for
City of LA approval.
| Quote: | Just trying to establish what an average gigging band is likely to come
across when they play
a typical pub or club gig.
Good. I think you got that....
The hire co's will know about distros and stuff. 'cos that's their job !
Our product is
typically more likely to be used by bands with their own rigs.
I think you're going out on a limb here. If you sell something which is
going to be marginal for it's intended use, you'll get a bad reputation
which is perhaps undeserved from the standpoint of quality.
|
Did I say anything was marginal ?
I simply said the PA cos know lots about power feeds.
| Quote: | What I'm getting at here is - suppose you have a 'substantial' amp or
two - take QSC's RMX
2450 and 4050 for example. If you drive it hard into low impedances (
recall we had someone
here who wanted to run 1 ohm loads ! ) are you going to trip a 15A
internal breaker in
practice ?
Being a manufacturer, you should have testing capabilities in-house to
determine that. Transformers (220-110) are not that expensive; and I expect
you'd want to do extensive testing on your new power supply in simulated
real-world applications before turning it loose on the country in
question...and then doing 'real' real-world testing here in the States
before marketing.
|
Well, we *do* do that kind of testing.
I'm simply trying to get some 'real world' feedback from users.
| Quote: | 15A being the max since it's clearly apparent from the response to date
that that
is indeed the 'standard' outlet - other than any fancy installations.
Nothing 'fancy' about it, but granted, not the rule.
Btw. UL is coming into line with IEC regs now. Never had a problem ever
selling gear in the
US. If in doubt - City of LA approval seems to keep most ppl happy. Never
had to get
anything UL listed. We comply of course since we have to be CE compliant
which is pretty (
almost certainly more ) rigourous.
Don't know about that, but a little research would confirm. I don't recall
ever using any gear which didn't have the UL seal. I doubt that it's a good
idea to advertise here that you don't intend to seek it. It would make a
good advertising point for your competition....
|
Well, if you ever bought any of our gear in the past it wasn't UL marked. Never
stopped it selling in the US.
You should be aware that selling into the European market requires compliance
with IEC safety regs. UL has now adopted IEC standards ( like the rest of the
world ) but may have some local variations.
My colleague was talking to UL only yesterday btw. We don't ignore the issue.
Graham |
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|
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Pooh Bear
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:09 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
Tim S Kemp wrote:
| Quote: | I had some UPS running in central london (on the mall) and the
monitoring software showed late night voltages over 260 and mid morning
down to 210 or lower...
|
That's *very* unusual. Sounds more like India !
Graham |
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|
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Tim S Kemp
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:08 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
Phildo wrote:
| Quote: | "Tim S Kemp" <timskemp@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1101933687.130312.291960@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I had some UPS running in central london (on the mall)
ICA?
Phildo
|
thankfully, no.
--
"Get a paper bag" |
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|
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Phildo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:08 am Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
"Tim S Kemp" <timskemp@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1101933687.130312.291960@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I had some UPS running in central london (on the mall)
|
ICA?
Phildo |
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|
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RL
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:01 pm Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
Mike wrote:
| Quote: | Small world... Did Olivia Newton John in Williamsport then Smokey
Robinson in Indiana. Drove right past you. =)
|
What size system do you run for events like that?
--
RL |
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|
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Mike
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
| Quote: | Small world... Did Olivia Newton John in Williamsport
then Smokey Robinson in Indiana. Drove right past you. =)
What size system do you run for events like that?
|
Both cases was a 16 box JBL Vertec system, flown in each venue. FOH was
a Midas XL200, 12 comps, 12 gates, 6FX. Monitors were covered by a Midas
XL250, 31-band EQs, and Yorkville TX2 wedges. Add a 120K light show,
standard double hung PAR 64 truss, and it ended up being a semi trailer full
of gear.
Mike Borkhuis |
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George Gleason
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:
Re: a question about power from the wall socket |
|
|
Mike wrote:
| Quote: | Small world... Did Olivia Newton John in Williamsport
then Smokey Robinson in Indiana. Drove right past you. =)
What size system do you run for events like that?
Both cases was a 16 box JBL Vertec system, flown in each venue. FOH was
a Midas XL200, 12 comps, 12 gates, 6FX. Monitors were covered by a Midas
XL250, 31-band EQs, and Yorkville TX2 wedges. Add a 120K light show,
standard double hung PAR 64 truss, and it ended up being a semi trailer full
of gear.
Mike Borkhuis
|
Does Sebastian own the Midas now/
did you sell the gl stuff/
george |
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