| Author |
Message |
FundaMental
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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Zigakly wrote:
| Quote: |
Sounds like you're describing poor compensation for the uneven response of
PA cabinets, which usually includes a 4kHz peak too. The notorious PA sound
I loathe most is when the PA is neutralized for a flat response using a
pre-recorded CD as a reference, then SM58's are used for vocals with little
or not EQ. Add horn-loaded mids and I'm outta there.
Smooth mids should definitely be more commonplace, but generally acoustic
and financial issues warrant the comprimising of deep low end. In many
circumstances buying the "baddest bass bins on the block" along with the
means to transport them is counter-productive when you consider the rate
hike required to pay for them. Installed systems are another animal.
|
Used to play a lot of gigs at the Chicago reggae club the Wild Hare.
Those guys don't mess around with bass. I think there's 16 eighteens
under the stage pointing at the dancefloor.
I could just touch a bass string and feel it vibrating up my feet into
my legs. That was good bass!
+oM
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Zigakly
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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| Quote: | Alright.. I can't stand it anymore. Does anyone find it annoying that
every
function you attend where there's either a band or a DJ, the audio is
missing the bottom two octaves and the vocals sound "amplified" as in
peaky
around 130Hz and 800Hz so that you KNOW it's a PA system you're hearing?
|
Sounds like you're describing poor compensation for the uneven response of
PA cabinets, which usually includes a 4kHz peak too. The notorious PA sound
I loathe most is when the PA is neutralized for a flat response using a
pre-recorded CD as a reference, then SM58's are used for vocals with little
or not EQ. Add horn-loaded mids and I'm outta there.
| Quote: | Doesn't anyone do natural sounding PAs that have smooth midranges and a
real
bottom end that's not all overtones of the fundamental frequencies?
|
Smooth mids should definitely be more commonplace, but generally acoustic
and financial issues warrant the comprimising of deep low end. In many
circumstances buying the "baddest bass bins on the block" along with the
means to transport them is counter-productive when you consider the rate
hike required to pay for them. Installed systems are another animal. |
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Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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Well guys, good answers from everyone. At least it isn't some regulation
prohibiting good sound in these venues. :-)
While the band I saw with my wife (BTW, she paid the tickets--$55--it was
part of an Induction Ball that she had to attend as an officer of the
organization) was actually one of the better sounding (for a Filipino band,
this is unusual, as the majority of them can't mix sound worth a darn) it
still fell within the classification of ,missing down below'. Part of that
perception may be me, being a "Bass Pig" who, not satisfied with the status
quo, built his own custom system of 10kW RMS, fourteen 18" subs in boxes
large enough for an F3 of 16Hz (the lowest note on a pipe organ), so I
thought I might be a little biased. :-) Even the organ at one of the larger
cathedrals in the northeast sounded 'anemic' in the pedal tone fundamentals,
at least to me.
The sound system at the venue I was in Saturday night wasn't being driven to
obvious distortion, but I think that part of the problem was improper mixing
and relying on the bass player's Hartke amp for probably more of the bass
mix than they should have been.
I don't blame horns for the peakiness of the sound I heard. Rather, I
suspect it's a matter of jamming a 15" driver into a tiny box barely bigger
than the driver and using too little damping material inside.
Hey, those Ramsdell Pro Audio subs look respectable, but again, compromised
for space and transportability. However, I note that they spec the SPL in
the 35-82Hz range, which is a lot more honest than specking in the
100-1200Hz range the way a lot of drivers do.
I've been designing loudspeaker systems, particularly subs for over thirty
years now, and have been around the block with folded horns, infinite
baffles, and vented boxes. I've come to some conclusions in those years, and
one of them is that a long cone travel capability is very essential. Too
many of the drivers I've worked with through the 70s, 80s & 90s suffered
from nonlinear excursion, voice coil former scrape against the pole piece
and fracture problems, not to mention the cones falling apart. Drivers from
E-V, JBL and Altec have been in systems I've designed over the years. I'd
been wishing someone would build a scaled up version of Bob Carver's "True
Subwoofer", that 9" cube that contains an 8" driver with a 2.35" stroke. Oh,
to have an 18" version of that.
Recently, E-V introduced a new driver, with a diaphragm made of reinforced
ribbed Kevlar, sporting a huge voice coil and a 2" stroke capability with a
larger than average bore size made possible by a more compact basket frame
design allowing 3/4" larger effective cone diameter. Two of 'em in a 16 cu
ft vented box produce 139dB @ 1 meter over the 45-100Hz range. They're 12dB
stronger than the Altec 3182s I was using prior. And gobs of bass below 20Hz
(enough to incidentally move 700lbs of rack and amplifiers during the play
of a 32' organ pedal tone). The US military has been experimenting with
these drivers and released a white paper on their experiments with Hemholtz
Resonators containing one of these drivers with measurements of the SPL at
8Hz and 14Hz (numbers in the 130dB range, amazingly!) Apparently they have a
patent on it (Patent #6665413). I quote a paragraph from the document at
Techmatch:
"In order to evaluate the aforementioned system, it was placed in a room
having an opening of approximately 3 square feet. With the speaker operating
at a frequency of 8 Hz or 14 Hz, and with the Helmholtz resonator tuned to
those frequencies at a few watts of power, a 118 dB level was measured in
the room with a calibrated microphone. With the room closed and the speaker
operating near but not at maximum power, the dB was in the 130 range. Finite
element engineering computer program calculations revealed that at these low
frequencies, the dB level is essentially constant throughout the room volume
at any time. Experimentally, the low frequencies propagated outside the
room, especially at the higher dB level. "
Granted, that's a special cabinet design with no practial use at musical
frequencies, but man, talk about bass! :-)
It just seems to me, in my jaded fashion, being what and who I am, that in
this day and age, good bass should be not only possible at low budget
events, but expected.
The new drivers from E-V solved a whole bunch of problems for me, giving me
more output for a given footprint, great resistance to failure and stress
and just plain more bass than even *I* know what to do with. Their spec
sheets do seem to go into more detail about measuring methods and results,
and an engineer I've been chatting with at E-V/Telex has confirmed that the
spec for measurement has shifted the test frequency range to that which a
subwoofer would actually be used, making this driver at least as sensitive
as some earlier models that had very high sensitivity ratings (but over a
higher range of frequencies). Listening (and feeling) tests provided a stark
contrast. The drivers chosen can make a huge difference, and being able to
push a 2" excursion rather than a 1/2" excursion makes a staggering
difference. One of the double 18" sub cabinets with these new drivers seems
to compete formidably with the whole rest of the system with the old
drivers. But I doubt such sound would be tolerated in a venue like a hotel.
It would be relegated to the likes of outdoor 'rave' events in the middle of
the desert, or something like California Jam, circa 1974. When you get a
dozen or more drivers going, with mutual coupling benefits, the sound front
becomes intense and widespread.
The problem with one (possibly more?) of the patrons at the event I attended
Saturday was that he felt that one should be able to converse without
shouting at the tables in the ballroom. I think there are times for talk and
times for watching and listening to the band. I guess different strokes is
the rule observed here. Some folks like it soft enough that conversation can
be held, others like it loud, and others want to be shook half to death with
fundamental tones from the bass player. Given the fact that I seemed to be
the only one complaining, I must conclude that part of the problem is my
perception of what bass SHOULD be is quite different than what the music
managers of these performers think.
--
Best Regards,
Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
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Greg Cameron
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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|
Joe L wrote:
| Quote: | I always thought it was the other way around, that a 2" horn was way better
than a 1" horn. And the prices increase with the larger HF throat size so I
thought that to be a good guideline.
|
2" exit drivers can down a little lower and get louder as they have
larger diaphragms and handle more power with comparable sensitivity to
their 1" exit counterparts. As an example, you might take a look at the
JBL compression driver specs to get an idea of what I mean. Their 1"
exit drivers use a 2" diaphragm, whereas the their 2" & 1.5" exit
models use a 4" diaphragm. The trade off with the 2" is more break up
at the top end of their frequency range and a harshness around the 3KHz
range that usually requires EQ to tame. 1" drivers tend to be smoother
in that range but don't have the oomph needed to throw those upper mids
in high output applications. The tops I use have a 2" JBL drivers that
operates in the 800 to 8KHz range, then a TAD 1" exit driver that goes
from 8KHz out to 20KHz. That works very well for taking care of the HF
breakup that the JBL can exhibit when running full out while
reproducing very high frequencies.
Greg |
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Servojohn
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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|
It mostly revolves around quality. You can have great sound from
either size, it just depends on what products are used.
Most of these small bad sounding DJ systems are just overdriven, and
not just at the amp. I've re-adjusted gain structure after a DJ has
screwed it all up more than once. Even less expensive gear can sound
acceptable, it's just that it takes some know how from the person
running the system, and sadly, most DJs seem to miss out on this aspect
of the job.
Best regards,
John |
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Mark
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:01 pm Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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FundaMental wrote:
| Quote: | Zigakly wrote:
Sounds like you're describing poor compensation for the uneven response of
PA cabinets, which usually includes a 4kHz peak too. The notorious PA sound
I loathe most is when the PA is neutralized for a flat response using a
pre-recorded CD as a reference, then SM58's are used for vocals with little
or not EQ. Add horn-loaded mids and I'm outta there.
Smooth mids should definitely be more commonplace, but generally acoustic
and financial issues warrant the comprimising of deep low end. In many
circumstances buying the "baddest bass bins on the block" along with the
means to transport them is counter-productive when you consider the rate
hike required to pay for them. Installed systems are another animal.
Used to play a lot of gigs at the Chicago reggae club the Wild Hare.
Those guys don't mess around with bass. I think there's 16 eighteens
under the stage pointing at the dancefloor.
I could just touch a bass string and feel it vibrating up my feet into
my legs. That was good bass!
+oM
|
Damn, its a good thing the "brown note" is a myth then..
Mark.
-- |
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Servojohn
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:30 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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Of course, you should walk up the block to the Cubby Bear, where there
are four Bdeap subwoofers in front of the stage, designed by Tom
Danley(Servodrive fame). An incredible amount of headroom, and great
low end.
His new designs are pretty cool too:
www.danleysoundlabs.com
Best regards,.
John |
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Greg Cameron
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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|
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:
| Quote: | Recently, E-V introduced a new driver, with a diaphragm made of reinforced
ribbed Kevlar, sporting a huge voice coil and a 2" stroke capability with a
larger than average bore size made possible by a more compact basket frame
design allowing 3/4" larger effective cone diameter.
The new drivers from E-V solved a whole bunch of problems for me, giving me
more output for a given footprint, great resistance to failure and stress
and just plain more bass than even *I* know what to do with. Their spec
sheets do seem to go into more detail about measuring methods and results,
and an engineer I've been chatting with at E-V/Telex has confirmed that the
spec for measurement has shifted the test frequency range to that which a
subwoofer would actually be used, making this driver at least as sensitive
as some earlier models that had very high sensitivity ratings (but over a
higher range of frequencies). Listening (and feeling) tests provided a stark
contrast. The drivers chosen can make a huge difference, and being able to
push a 2" excursion rather than a 1/2" excursion makes a staggering
difference. One of the double 18" sub cabinets with these new drivers seems
to compete formidably with the whole rest of the system with the old
drivers. But I doubt such sound would be tolerated in a venue like a hotel.
It would be relegated to the likes of outdoor 'rave' events in the middle of
the desert, or something like California Jam, circa 1974. When you get a
dozen or more drivers going, with mutual coupling benefits, the sound front
becomes intense and widespread.
|
Mark, what is the model of that EV 18"? I'm currently running
EVX-180B's in my double 18 boxes crossed at 60-80Hz (depending on the
venue) and high passed at about 28Hz. These sound like they could
effectively double the output in the same boxes if the T/S parameters
are compatible. Could be a relatively inexpensive upgrade compared to
doubling the number of subs if the amps also don't need upgrading ;-)
Greg |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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On 2005-11-08 szekeres@pitt.edu(GregS) said:
| Quote: | I hear some bands where the PA for the most part is for vocals only.
There will be that bass
player which I can hardly hear let alone feel. Sometimes I even
tell them that, but
it never gets any kind of results. Many times the bass player is
using a tiny speaker which can never get good fundamentals. Having
a small PA, its up to the bass player to get it going. Often with
PA's you just don't lug around all the necessary bass cabinets.
THen there's the guy I used to play with back in Ames Ia. in |
the '80's. HE had one of those Cerwin Vega earthquake cabs
with the 18 in a folded horn iirc. HE had plenty of sound
at the back of the room but on stage you could feel him more
than hear him and then not as well as I"d like. I finally
talked him into using another small cab and biamping his
bass rig so that we could actually hear him onstage as well
as feel him <g>.
Richard WEbb,
Electric SPider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.
Richard WEbb,
Electric SPider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address. |
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Rupert
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:
| Quote: |
Mark, what is the model of that EV 18"? I'm currently running
EVX-180B's in my double 18 boxes crossed at 60-80Hz (depending on the
venue) and high passed at about 28Hz. These sound like they could
effectively double the output in the same boxes if the T/S parameters
are compatible. Could be a relatively inexpensive upgrade compared to
doubling the number of subs if the amps also don't need upgrading ;-)
Greg
These are indeed the EVX180B model. We don't high pass ours. Our boxes are
tuned at 18Hz and the 180Bs actually seem to increase output as frequency of
signal gets down toward 20Hz. Since installing these, use of a CD player has
become impossible, even at "idling" power levels. The sheer vibration from
these things is nasty! We were pumping some pipe organ recording through
them, and just ONE of the double 180B cabinets provided as much bass as the
entire sound system with all the old woofers. Put 'em in 20 cu ft boxes with
a long vent length and watch the roof cave in. :-) But be sure the boxes
are built rigidly enough not to fall apart. We have a 2,000 watt amp driving
EACH cabinet and with the amp running at -20dB on peaks, the SPL is almost
unbearable. Yes, you can reach your hand out and FEEL bass buffeting your
hand. It's definately a woofer for solid state music sources, like memory
sticks. Mechanical sources fail to operate at these SPLs. Heck, our
equipment racks started rocking back and forth to some sub harmonic when two
organ pedal tones overlapped briefly!
We got a killer deal on a bunch of these factory-fresh drivers on eBay. Best
system upgrade we've done in a long time!
|
The boxes I've got my 180B's in have a low cutoff of 20Hz with center
tuned frequency of 32Hz. They're useable down to 25Hz with those
drivers, but for your average rock music that's more then adequate. I
could see for a pipe organ why you'd need to go lower ;-). I don't know
if you've check out the McCauley 6174 "Super 18", but it's rated down
to 15Hz with a peak to peak excursion capability of 2 inches. Though it
doesn't sound like you need to change anything, these drivers seem like
they could be better suited for your application:
http://www.mccauleysound.com/component_overview.cfm?ID=126
Greg |
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Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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|
| Quote: |
Mark, what is the model of that EV 18"? I'm currently running
EVX-180B's in my double 18 boxes crossed at 60-80Hz (depending on the
venue) and high passed at about 28Hz. These sound like they could
effectively double the output in the same boxes if the T/S parameters
are compatible. Could be a relatively inexpensive upgrade compared to
doubling the number of subs if the amps also don't need upgrading ;-)
Greg
|
These are indeed the EVX180B model. We don't high pass ours. Our boxes are
tuned at 18Hz and the 180Bs actually seem to increase output as frequency of
signal gets down toward 20Hz. Since installing these, use of a CD player has
become impossible, even at "idling" power levels. The sheer vibration from
these things is nasty! We were pumping some pipe organ recording through
them, and just ONE of the double 180B cabinets provided as much bass as the
entire sound system with all the old woofers. Put 'em in 20 cu ft boxes with
a long vent length and watch the roof cave in. :-) But be sure the boxes
are built rigidly enough not to fall apart. We have a 2,000 watt amp driving
EACH cabinet and with the amp running at -20dB on peaks, the SPL is almost
unbearable. Yes, you can reach your hand out and FEEL bass buffeting your
hand. It's definately a woofer for solid state music sources, like memory
sticks. Mechanical sources fail to operate at these SPLs. Heck, our
equipment racks started rocking back and forth to some sub harmonic when two
organ pedal tones overlapped briefly!
We got a killer deal on a bunch of these factory-fresh drivers on eBay. Best
system upgrade we've done in a long time!
--
Best Regards,
Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
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Servojohn
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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|
Odd, not a new driver(been around at least six years), and Xmax is only
..25", and the mechanical limit is only 1.0" or so. This is the driver
you refer to with a 2" stroke?
The patent you cite is for an enclosure design, was not done by EV, it
was done for the military.
Your descriptions are not entirely clear-can you elaborate?
Best regards,
John |
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Peter Larsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:13 pm Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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|
Greg Cameron wrote:
| Quote: | Mark, what is the model of that EV 18"? I'm currently running
EVX-180B's in my double 18 boxes crossed at 60-80Hz (depending
on the venue) and high passed at about 28Hz.
|
Generally speaking a loudspeaker unit covers 4 octaves reasonably and is
usable in 2 to 3 of those, properly compensating cross-over assumed.
| Quote: | These sound like
they could effectively double the output in the same boxes if
the T/S parameters are compatible. Could be a relatively
inexpensive upgrade compared to doubling the number of subs
if the amps also don't need upgrading ;-)
|
The distortion specs for air are not changed by altering a bass units
suspension, bass reflex boxes are mediocre to awful at creating a lot of
high SPL low frequency via their ports but very good at distorting less
higher up because of the ports.
Which is btw. also to say that high pass filtering is very sensible, but
take care that the phase change caused by it does not mess the
cross-over up, it may be preferable to have the high pass before the
cross-over so as to have its phase influence apply also to the low
midrange unit for a smooth cross-over. It is required to always consider
the effect on the systems summation of doing something in some single
frequency band.
Doubling the number of subs is likely to sound better than making the
ones you have sound louder, btw. also because of an improved acoustic
impedance match to the air, a sane bass box stacking with proper
coupling assumed. It will however also take double the van space and
more time to rig and to pack.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
******************************************* |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:39 pm Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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|
"Peter Larsen" <SPAMSHIELD_plarsen@mail.tele.dk> wrote in
message news:4375CE5E.A528ECE1@mail.tele.dk
| Quote: | Greg Cameron wrote:
Mark, what is the model of that EV 18"? I'm currently
running EVX-180B's in my double 18 boxes crossed at
60-80Hz (depending on the venue) and high passed at
about 28Hz.
Generally speaking a loudspeaker unit covers 4 octaves
reasonably and is usable in 2 to 3 of those, properly
compensating cross-over assumed.
These sound like
they could effectively double the output in the same
boxes if the T/S parameters are compatible. Could be a
relatively inexpensive upgrade compared to doubling the
number of subs if the amps also don't need upgrading ;-)
The distortion specs for air are not changed by altering
a bass units suspension,
|
In a well-designed system, the suspension of the woofer is
the major source of distortion.
| Quote: | bass reflex boxes are mediocre
to awful at creating a lot of high SPL low frequency via
their ports but very good at distorting less higher up
because of the ports.
|
The problem here would be a port that has too much turbulent
flow. One cause would be a port that is too small, and
another would be a port with inadequate aerodynamics.
| Quote: | Which is btw. also to say that high pass filtering is
very sensible, but take care that the phase change caused
by it does not mess the cross-over up, it may be
preferable to have the high pass before the cross-over so
as to have its phase influence apply also to the low
midrange unit for a smooth cross-over.
|
Agreed. In a 3 or 4-way system there are a number of posible
ways to stack up the crossover filters. Some are better than
others.
| Quote: | It is required to
always consider the effect on the systems summation of
doing something in some single frequency band.
|
Agreed. Just because the crossover electrically sums to zero
in a 2-way does not mean that all possible ways of using it
in a higher-order system are good. Also, the drivers often
have poles and zeros that are close enough to crossover
frequencies to disrupt the desired summing effect.
| Quote: | Doubling the number of subs is likely to sound better
than making the ones you have sound louder, btw. also
because of an improved acoustic impedance match to the
air, a sane bass box stacking with proper coupling
assumed. It will however also take double the van space
and more time to rig and to pack.
|
Agreed. While it is possible to use a larger number of
low-stroke woofers to get the desired power handling, a
smaller number of high-stroke woofers help minimize the
space requirements. |
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Peter Larsen
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Lack of REAL Bass in DJ Setups and Bands Sound Systems |
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|
Note: I crosspost to rec.audio.tech in case Mr. Pierce wants to comment
on this .... it is my experience that he knows more about these matters
than I do.
Arny Krueger wrote:
[my comment]
| Quote: | The distortion specs for air are not changed by altering
a bass units suspension,
In a well-designed system, the suspension of the woofer is
the major source of distortion.
|
I was considering the air in the box and most certainly in the port. I
increased the port area in my @home system as pr. JBL recommendations in
their proprietaty cabinet desiogn software on the advice of
Quali-Service in 1993.
Without that experience I would have agreed that it was correct for home
use, but perhaps not for loudenbooming, with it I say that with a good
loudspeaker unit of sufficient area to avoid extreme excursion the air
is the issue, and not the loudspeaker in terms of LF distortion.
The outcome even at apartment friendly listening levels was a notable
bass quality improvement, much more horn like. No change in the box
tuning mind you, just a doubling of port cross sectional area - from 1
port to 2 longer ports - that I hadn't bothered with in 1980 because one
port was simpler and "surely enough at the modest levels designed for".
Proper high SPL bass bins eliminate most of the loudspeaker suspension
concerns by not letting it have large excursion, and instead horn
loading it as Turbosound does with the example quality bass driver in
this thread.
I have yet to hear a bandbass box or reflex box system sound well in the
bass range at high SPL, they tend to become hard and smallish sounding
instead of just producing moving air as large horns do it. That problem
is however a likely uavoidable compromise between van space requirement
and amplifier wattage needed, it is easier to haul the extra 6 dB of
amplifier power than to haul them big horns.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
******************************************* |
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