DVD-Software.info

[Mark & Mary Ann Weiss]

Alright.. I can't stand it anymore. Does anyone find it annoying that every
function you attend where there's either a band or a DJ, the audio is
missing the bottom two octaves and the vocals sound "amplified" as in peaky
around 130Hz and 800Hz so that you KNOW it's a PA system you're hearing?
Doesn't anyone do natural sounding PAs that have smooth midranges and a real
bottom end that's not all overtones of the fundamental frequencies?

The most recent function I attended was a popular band from the Philippines
that performed for a 350-person crowd at a Hilton last night. The band
itself was good, but the sound was shitty. If the bass player hit an open E
string, all you'd hear is the 2nd and 3rd harmonic, almost no fundamental to
speak of. This particular band had two Yorkville subs out in front with JBL
satellite speakers on poles. I expected better than this.

And this was one of the better sounding bands I've heard recently! Others
were using Bose speakers and they REALLY sounded shitty!

So what's with the completely missing bottom end? Is there some sort of
regulation about filtering out the bass when performing in a hotel ballroom?

Incidentally, one of the guests, while taking a break in the lobby to get
another drink from the bar, complained that the music was too loud. I saw
him pulling two foam earplugs out of his ears as he was mentioning that.
Granted, it was kind of hard to have a conversation, but the SPLs in the
voice range were under 90dB. It's just the 130Hz range that seemd to be
slightly over 100dB. The vibrations of the higher bass notes and the
overtones could be felt somewhat, but there was no satisfying deep bass.
What's up with that? I just can't avoid mentioning it any longer!

--

--
Best Regards,

Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-

[Greg Cameron]

That's what happens when bands/promoter/managment won't hire a proper
sound company to do the job. I do sound for certain events at places
like the Hilton ballrooms for crowds that size or larger. I will bring
4 double 18" subs and 4 four-way tops with plenty of power behind them
if it's a rock show. If it's lighter stuff, I'll cut the subs to 2 and
run a pair of smaller tops. The subs I run will go down below 30Hz, so
the sound will be "well rounded." I do understand where you're coming
from.

Greg

[Greg Cameron]

S...@SarasotaSlim.com wrote:

[Guest]

Typical PA on a stick stuff except these guys had some inadiquate subs
too. I've always thought that all of the low to mid line JBL stuff was
too bright with lots of weird peaks.
I have a friend that has been making PA speakers for 20-30 years and he
thinks that much of that brashness on the high end comes from the
typical 1" horn drivers that most of the low to mid level stuff uses.
Things tend to smooth out more when you have a 2" horn driver. I think
I agree with him.
As for them Yorkvilles - I don't think they make anything big enough to
fill a room like that. The only one I ever heard sounded humpy and
bumpy when you're right next to it but it didn't cover the room.

If you want that deep bass check out some of the subs my buddy Rick
Ramsdell makes...
http://www.ramsdellproaudio.com/products/subs/BP-SD21.htm


I just got a pair of these and hope to get 2 more soon.
http://www.ramsdellproaudio.com/products/powered/PSW-3-15.htm
got these too.
http://www.ramsdellproaudio.com/products/powered/PS-2-15-X-SS.htm
I want to put something like this under it all.
http://www.ramsdellproaudio.com/products/powered/PSW-21.htm

[Rolf Koski]

Skeeter <harpmeister@sympatico.ca> wrote:

[Skeeter]

Hello Mark & Mary,

Unfortunately there is a lack of understanding and skill for most small
production setups. Most all of the truly skilled and talented live
sound people get picked up by the premier concert tour business.
Setting up a live PA for clear, balanced, full spectrum sound takes a
lot of skill, experience and time for proper sound checks. Most small
productions lack in some of these essential ingredients.

You make no reference to the dimensions of the room, but with a crowd
of 350 people I would have to first comment that the PA that you
described is probably a bit small for this large of a crowd. Using two
Yorkville subs and JBL pole mount speakers may work for a crowd of
say... 80 to 150 people depending on the room, certainly not the size
of crowd that you described. I would normally use at least 4 18" subs,
2 stacks of 15" 3 way stage speakers, and a set of long throw horns on
poles or flying for a crowd that size.

The inaccurate frequency response is typical of a rookie sound person.
There is no reason why there could not have been flat response down to
50Hz using the Yorkville subs at a balanced SPL with anything that the
JBL mains could pump out. Yorkville subs are not my preference, but I
have had to use them quite a bit over the years. With good
equalization and good mix they can deliver the goods. I can normally
get their 18" singles flat down to 50Hz (within 3 dB), their double 18"
subs can be made flat down to 42Hz (within 3dB).

Getting down to the first octave is really out of the question for most
any regular speaker gear. There is nothing in normal band mixes below
45Hz unless you've got a grand piano 28Hz, double bass 42Hz, or a pipe
organ 20Hz.

I also noticed that you mentioned some people complaining about the
volume level, yet you stated that it may have only been slightly over
100dB. This leads me to a suspicion that the equalization was way off,
and the amplifiers were being driven badly.

When people start complaining about volume, it's usually because of
terrible frequency response balancing and/or amplifier distortion from
being overdriven. You can normally maintain an average SPL of 100dB to
115dB (depending on where in the room) without people getting upset.
You can do this when the sound is very clean and balanced.

Lack of preparation, lack of knowledge, lack of skill, lack of caring,
lack of time, generally a lack of professionalism... there is an
unfortunate amount of these concerns abounding in small production
crews.

All the best to you,
Skeeter.

[Pooh Bear]

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

[Tim S Kemp]

Pooh Bear wrote:

[GregS]

I hear some bands where the PA for the most part is for vocals only. There will be that bass
player which I can hardly hear let alone feel. Sometimes I even tell them that, but
it never gets any kind of results. Many times the bass player is using
a tiny speaker which can never get good fundamentals. Having a small PA, its
up to the bass player to get it going. Often with PA's you
just don't lug around all the necessary bass cabinets.

greg

[Skeeter]

Hi Rolf,

True enough... sorry that I missed that. The sad fact of electric bass
in almost any small production or club setting is that the availability
of proper sub(s) for getting down to 40Hz flat is an exception, rather
than a rule. Even the vast majority of so called "bass amplifiers"
(Ampeg-Hartke, etc...) don't get down to the 42Hz range with accurate,
balanced response.

Most of the time, I find myself dealing with subs that will only
equalize flat reasonably down to 45 or 50Hz. There is response at the
41.2Hz fundamental, but it is down by usually around 4 to 6 dB. Some
cabinets will not even eq down to this level as their native resonant
frequency may be above 42Hz. Or worse, I get to work with some cheesy
folded horn subs that produce tremendous volumes of bass energy without
accuracy. This is the issue with being hired to set up someone elses
idea of good PA.

It's usually down to economics, convenience, and misunderstanding why
this happens. Most agents/producers of small scale entertainment only
want to make a buck. Their best buck possible.

Best regards,
Skeeter.


..

[Rupert]

Skeeter wrote:

[Skeeter]

Hi Rupert,

I agree 100% with you regarding this topic. I have found that the PA
must be equalized at the average performance SPL during the
soundchecks. Normally, I use 110dB as my starting mark. This works
great for the bass and midbass. The mids and especially the highs will
require a good ear to tweak the eq once the room gets filled up with
people.

It is very misleading to believe the specification crap that most
speaker manufacturers supply. That 1W/1m spec is nowhere near where
those speakers will end up pumping at a live performance. There's
lies, damn lies, and then there's speaker specifications!

I was looking at the Electro Voice website as I am considering the
purchase of a set of TL550D's. I have used these a few times (and the
TL880D's... great but huge and heavy) and found them to be one of the
cleaner subs. On the website EV offers frequency response and
distortion measurements at 1W, 12W, and 120W continuous, also the polar
response measurements. More useful info than most manufacturers
provide.

Best regards,
Skeeter.

[Douglas R. Allen]

Mark
As many have already hinted at it is mostly $ that detemines to a larger
extent how a band is going to sound. The lowest octaves require proper amp
power and for the most part large and or expensive bass bins to keep up.
Also a knowledge of proper placement and alignment of the mid's to subs has
a large part in this. Its hard for someone making $100 bucks a night to fork
over $6000 dollars for subs so that some drunkin' idiot can enjoy a five
string bass. Yes it is important to do the best you can but going broke
won't do you no good either.
When I judge a system and listen to someone else's mix I take a good look at
what they have to work with. Understand the likely budget that they have and
if it seems they are doing the best they can with what they have. Allot of
times some of these sound providers are in it for a hobby and break even
gigs are the norm. Did you pay $100 to see the band or $3 bucks? If $3 did
you get your money's worth?
Last thing I would recommend is going out and purchasing a pa system and
start providing sound with the full rounded bass you like. When the band can
only pay $100 bucks for the $25,000 dollar pa you have then you will know
whats going on.

Kindest Regards
Doug

[Skeeter]

[Joe L]

"Greg Cameron" <cameronproaudio@linkline.com> wrote in message
news:1131425657.851799.50620@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...