| Author |
Message |
Jeff Rife
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
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Seth (seth_lermanNOSPAM@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
| Quote: | TiVo Community and AVS Forum. *Nobody* spends money on an HR10-250 for
just DirecTV. OK, so a couple of people have, but they are the vast
minority.
Guess I'm part of the minority then.
|
Are you in a location where you get all the networks via satellite because
you have O&O affiliates? New York, LA, and Chicago DMAs are like this,
and the majority of people with HR10-250s that don't have antennas for
them have this alternative.
--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/ShermansLagoon/LoanedDVD.gif
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Seth
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:15 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
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"Jeff Rife" <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1dd941f9d6e291b998a0ec@news.nabs.net...
| Quote: | Seth (seth_lermanNOSPAM@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
TiVo Community and AVS Forum. *Nobody* spends money on an HR10-250 for
just DirecTV. OK, so a couple of people have, but they are the vast
minority.
Guess I'm part of the minority then.
Are you in a location where you get all the networks via satellite because
you have O&O affiliates? New York, LA, and Chicago DMAs are like this,
and the majority of people with HR10-250s that don't have antennas for
them have this alternative.
|
Yeah, I have the major networks, but due to how far I am from a major area I
am unable to get the minors (like WB and UPN) as DirecTV is not currently
offering them in any form. |
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Jeff Rife
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:39 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
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Seth (seth_lermanNOSPAM@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
| Quote: | Yeah, I have the major networks, but due to how far I am from a major area I
am unable to get the minors (like WB and UPN) as DirecTV is not currently
offering them in any form.
|
According to AVS Forum, the MPEG-4 test in Detroit isn't offering all
channels that are actually broadcasting HD in the Detroit DMA, either, so
you might not get those until analog is shut off (which would make digital
the only locals and subject to the same laws as now which require carriage
of all channels in a DMA if any one channel from that DMA is carried).
--
Jeff Rife | Al Gore: To my left, you'll recognize
| Gary Gygax, inventor of Dungeons &
| Dragons.
| Gary Gygax: Greetings it's a...
| [rolls dice]
| Gary Gygax: ...pleasure to meet you.
| -- "Futurama" |
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David Levy
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:14 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
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Jeff Rife wrote:
| Quote: | If something is delivered to the home via a mode other than
satellite, it isn't "DirecTV programming."
You may know that, and I may know that, but with the integration of
the local digital channels on the receiver, most users won't know that.
|
1. They won't realize that they have a terrestrial antenna in place?
2. What relevance does this have to my statement that the HR10-250 no
longer is capable of receiving all of DirecTV's programming?
| Quote: | There are areas within the twelve largest DMAs (and elsewhere,
obviously) in which OTA television reception is difficult or
literally impossible.
Agreed, but most people who own HR10-250s solve these problems,
because otherwise it's a pretty expensive toy for a limited use.
|
For many people, this is not a problem that can realistically be
overcome without changing their places of residence. |
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David Levy
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:14 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
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Jeff Rife wrote:
| Quote: | There are very, very few people with HR10-250s who cannot receive
OTA ATSC.
Please cite a source.
TiVo Community and AVS Forum.
|
That isn't necessarily an accurate sampling. Aside from comprising a
tiny segment of the television-viewing population, posters to such
forums tend to possess above-average knowledge on the subject of A/V
equipment (and therefore are less likely to purchase an ill-suited DBS
receiver).
I was thinking more along the lines of a journalistic report or
company document.
And of course, none of this has any bearing on the accuracy of my
statement that the HR10-250 no longer is capable of receiving all of
DirecTV's programming.
| Quote: | *Nobody* spends money on an HR10-250 for just DirecTV. OK, so a
couple of people have, but they are the vast minority.
|
I'm one of them. And yes, I am in an O&O market for ABC, CBS, Fox and
NBC.
| Quote: | Assuming that this is true, isn't it probable that this stems from
the fact that people who are unable to receive OTA ATSC broadcasts
(and unable to receive HD feeds of their local television stations
via DirecTV) are less likely to be interested in owning such a box?
No, because the 12 markets that are getting the MPEG-4 locals first
are the same ones that have a *lot* of O&O network stations, which
make distant locals available over the satellite.
|
My above statement has absolutely nothing to do with those twelve
specific markets or the introduction of MPEG-4 transmissions.
Someone who is unable to receive high-definition feeds of local
television stations (via some means) almost certainly has less
incentive to own a high-definition television receiver.
Yes, the availability of HD distant network service is a fairly good
replacement, but it won't satisfy everyone. (And keep in mind that
some markets contain O&O stations for only certain networks. In
Detroit, for example, the ABC and NBC affiliates are not
network-owned.)
I do agree that the desirability drop-off between those capable of
receiving HD DNS for the four major networks and those incapable of
receiving any HD network programming most likely is greater. This,
however, is a logical extension of my statement:
People who are unable to receive OTA ATSC broadcasts (and unable to
receive HD network feeds _of any kind_ via DirecTV) are less likely to
be interested in owning an HR10-250 (or any other DirecTV HD
receiver).
| Quote: | Sure, it's not the "local" station, but very few people are clamoring
to get OTA digital for their local news.
|
What about PBS, UPN and WB? What about sub-channels?
| Quote: | If the retransmission of HD broadcast network programming via
satellite is insignificant, why did DirecTV go to the trouble and
expense of negotiating agreements with the four major broadcast
networks for delivery of the digital East/West Coast distant feeds
in O&O markets?
Because Dish did so first with some of the networks, and this was
primarily because they had far more satellite space at the time,
and far less capable HD receivers.
|
If this addition was insignificant to DirecTV's customers, why did
DirecTV dedicate so much bandwidth to the endeavor? (As you noted,
DirecTV had less to spare.) Much of it is not at 101° W, but it could
have been used for other HD programming (providing either additional
channels or higher resolution for the existing lineup).
| Quote: | Why is DirecTV in the process of introducing LIL HD service? If
nearly everyone can simply receive OTA ATSC broadcasts(which always
will be of higher quality than retransmissions), what's the point of
bothering with all of this?
For the same reason...to have something that Dish doesn't have.
|
Offering something that a competitor lacks is advantageous only if
said offering is desirable to customers.
| Quote: | DirecTV had two satellites "in the pipe" on which they had already
spent a lot of money.
|
The Spaceway project includes three satellites. (Spaceway 3 has been
assigned to Hughes Network Systems, 50% of which was sold to SkyTerra
Communications.)
| Quote: | These satellites were for something that loses money for DirecTV (their
satellite Internet service), so they decided to try to make some kind
of money off the expense.
|
Precisely. If this service is insignificant, why does DirecTV believe
that it will be profitable? |
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David Levy
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:14 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
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|
Glen Zabriskie wrote:
| Quote: | There are areas within the twelve largest DMAs (and elsewhere,
obviously) in which OTA television reception is difficult or
literally impossible.
And that is due to many of those stations only broadcasting at
1/10 th of their maximun power output till the analog shutoff so
as to not create interference between the analog and digital bands.
|
I'm referring to locations in which OTA television reception (not
merely ATSC broadcast reception) is difficult or literally impossible
(such as many mountainous areas). |
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Jack Zwick
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:30 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
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|
In article <23r1n15175ejeaige96si2kod3dci552te@4ax.com>,
David Levy <d_levy@lifeisunfair.net> wrote:
| Quote: | the HR10-250 no
longer is capable of receiving all of DirecTV's programming?
|
It is capable of receiving all the programming and MORE
(like ESPN 2 in HD) that it got the day someone bought it). |
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David Levy
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:02 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
|
|
Jack Zwick wrote:
| Quote: | [The HR10-250] is capable of receiving all the programming and
MORE (like ESPN 2 in HD) that it got the day someone bought it).
|
I didn't claim otherwise. My point was that subscribers wishing to
receive DirecTV's MPEG-4 transmissions will not have the option of
doing so with a TiVo-based DirecTV DVR. |
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Jeff Rife
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:55 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
|
|
David Levy (d_levy@lifeisunfair.net) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
| Quote: | You may know that, and I may know that, but with the integration of
the local digital channels on the receiver, most users won't know that.
1. They won't realize that they have a terrestrial antenna in place?
|
There are quite a few users who managed to receive OTA digital locals just
fine with "whatever the guy installed". Some might not notice the very
small antenna that is the default.
But, since the receiver UI presents OTA channels right alongside all the
other ones (including analog locals *and* the new digital LIL channels),
many people will just think it comes from DirecTV even with the antenna.
This is mostly because of the belief that OTA TV must look like snowy crap.
| Quote: | 2. What relevance does this have to my statement that the HR10-250 no
longer is capable of receiving all of DirecTV's programming?
|
Because it's wrong? DirecTV isn't sending anything new out that the
HR10-250 cannot receive, although it might receive it in a slightly
different way.
--
Jeff Rife | "What kind of universe is this where a man can't
| love his fake wife's mother's best friend?"
|
| -- Ned Dorsey, "Ned and Stacey" |
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Jeff Rife
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:07 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
|
|
David Levy (d_levy@lifeisunfair.net) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
| Quote: | Jeff Rife wrote:
There are very, very few people with HR10-250s who cannot receive
OTA ATSC.
Please cite a source.
TiVo Community and AVS Forum.
That isn't necessarily an accurate sampling.
|
For HR10-250s, it's a fairly accurate sampling, as there are *thousands*
of users at those two forums that have HR10-250s, and less than 200K total
units installed. That's over 1%, which is far less than polls use to
determine things like Dewey defeating Truman.
| Quote: | *Nobody* spends money on an HR10-250 for just DirecTV. OK, so a
couple of people have, but they are the vast minority.
I'm one of them. And yes, I am in an O&O market for ABC, CBS, Fox and
NBC.
|
So, you bought it for OTA networks, too. Conveniently, you get them via
the satellite and didn't have to install an antenna. Perhaps this also
clouds your judgment.
| Quote: | Someone who is unable to receive high-definition feeds of local
television stations (via some means) almost certainly has less
incentive to own a high-definition television receiver.
|
No, actually, they don't, since HD generally only occurs during network
programming timeslots. For this, *any* network feed that is HD will do.
| Quote: | Sure, it's not the "local" station, but very few people are clamoring
to get OTA digital for their local news.
What about PBS, UPN and WB?
|
What about them? DirecTV isn't providing them in Detroit, and does not
legally have to.
| Quote: | What about sub-channels?
|
What about them? DirecTV isn't providing them in Detroit, and has
announced they will *not* do so.
| Quote: | DirecTV had two satellites "in the pipe" on which they had already
spent a lot of money.
The Spaceway project includes three satellites.
|
That's as may be, but it doesn't make any difference since only one of
the two satellites "in the pipe" was a SpaceWay sat...the other one was
DirecTV 8. The could have ditched the other two SpaceWay sats with not
much loss of money, but the other two were already mostly paid for. The
re-purpose of SpaceWay 1 gave DirecTV the ability to salvage it, and the
extension was that they could do the same with the others, if the wanted
to.
| Quote: | (Spaceway 3 has been
assigned to Hughes Network Systems, 50% of which was sold to SkyTerra
Communications.)
|
And, as I pointed out, they are getting out of the Internet business,
which is why they are dumping that capacity. Eventually, I suspect the
whole thing will go to somebody else, although if it is a unique orbital
slot, DirecTV will just rent it out instead of selling outright. They
are doing this because they don't need that capacity for HDTV, which is
what the SpaceWay sats are now being used for.
| Quote: | These satellites were for something that loses money for DirecTV (their
satellite Internet service), so they decided to try to make some kind
of money off the expense.
Precisely. If this service is insignificant, why does DirecTV believe
that it will be profitable?
|
They don't have to believe that. They just have to believe it will be
less of a money loser than either cancelling the satellite contract
or sticking with a *worse* money loser: satellite Internet.
--
Jeff Rife | "I feel an intense ambivalence, some of which
| doesn't border entirely on the negative."
|
| -- Ned Dorsey, "Ned and Stacey" |
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Jeff Rife
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:13 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
|
|
David Levy (d_levy@lifeisunfair.net) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
| Quote: | [The HR10-250] is capable of receiving all the programming and
MORE (like ESPN 2 in HD) that it got the day someone bought it).
I didn't claim otherwise. My point was that subscribers wishing to
receive DirecTV's MPEG-4 transmissions will not have the option of
doing so with a TiVo-based DirecTV DVR.
|
You don't know that.
Since subscribers can receive MPEG-4 from DirecTV with *any* DVR, it's
possible that one that does it will have TiVo software. Based on the
reliabilty of *every* other DVR vs. TiVo, I suspect that DirecTV will
end up with multiple software platforms on their MPEG-4 DVRs, just like
they did for their MPEG-2 DVRs.
--
Jeff Rife | "What's goin' on down here?"
| "Oh, we're playing house."
| "But, that boy is all tied up."
| "...Roman Polanski's house."
| -- Lois and Stewie Griffin, "Family Guy" |
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Jack Zwick
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
|
|
In article <cd72n19q6emsddvcftduqren5a3gd5b9s3@4ax.com>,
David Levy <d_levy@lifeisunfair.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Jack Zwick wrote:
[The HR10-250] is capable of receiving all the programming and
MORE (like ESPN 2 in HD) that it got the day someone bought it).
I didn't claim otherwise. My point was that subscribers wishing to
receive DirecTV's MPEG-4 transmissions will not have the option of
doing so with a TiVo-based DirecTV DVR.
|
My wife was underwhelmed when I told her about the new NBC day after
pay-per-view. |
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Randy S.
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
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|
| Quote: | Please cite a source.
TiVo Community and AVS Forum.
That isn't necessarily an accurate sampling.
For HR10-250s, it's a fairly accurate sampling, as there are *thousands*
of users at those two forums that have HR10-250s, and less than 200K total
units installed. That's over 1%, which is far less than polls use to
determine things like Dewey defeating Truman.
|
Not to take sides, but I have to cry foul on that one. Public opinion
polls use random sampling to arrive at statistically significant
samples. A sample of bulletin board users is far from random, so
regardless of the fact that the sample size is the same, there is no
basis to suggest that it is a *statistically representative* sample.
Thus you cannot draw the conclusion that the actions or opinions of the
larger population is represented by the non-random sampling that you
have presented. It's not always fair to say that public opinion polls
are truly statistically random (in fact some are saying that the growing
spread of cell phones, which are not currently polled, among younger
people is skewing the polling samples), but they take a significant
effort for them to approach randomness.
Sorry, misuse of statistics to misrepresent a conclusion (intentional or
not) is a pet-peeve of mine. The media is *horribly* guilty of
consistantly misconstruing correlation with cause and effect, and it
drives me *nuts*.
Randy S. |
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David Levy
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
|
|
Jeff Rife wrote:
| Quote: | For HR10-250s, it's a fairly accurate sampling, as there are
*thousands* of users at those two forums that have HR10-250s, and less
than 200K total units installed.
|
Had this information been obtained from thousands of HR10-250 owners
selected on a totally random basis, I would agree that it was a fairly
accurate sampling. Again, however, you're referring to forums that
attract people whose knowledge of A/V equipment is above average.
This plays a major role in their buying decisions.
| Quote: | That's over 1%, which is far less than polls use to determine things
like Dewey defeating Truman.
|
I assume that you mean "more."
| Quote: | So, you bought it for OTA networks, too.
|
The term "OTA" popularly refers to terrestrial broadcasts.
| Quote: | Conveniently, you get them via the satellite and didn't have to install
an antenna.
|
I reside in a rural area in which OTA television reception is very
difficult. None of my neighbors have attempted to receive ATSC
broadcasts, so I don't even know that it's feasible.
Otherwise, I would select ATSC broadcasts over DirecTV's inferior
retransmissions in a heartbeat. I also would like to receive PBS and
WB in HD.
| Quote: | Someone who is unable to receive high-definition feeds of local
television stations (via some means) almost certainly has less
incentive to own a high-definition television receiver.
No, actually, they don't, since HD generally only occurs during network
programming timeslots. For this, *any* network feed that is HD will do.
|
Does any network feed include coverage of local sporting events?
You already referenced HD local newscasts, which are available in many
markets. (These don't particularly interest me, but neither do
sporting events.)
| Quote: | What about PBS, UPN and WB?
What about them? DirecTV isn't providing them in Detroit,
and does not legally have to.
|
I was replying to your assertion that DirecTV's digital DNS service is
a suitable substitute for OTA reception. In no manner was I referring
to the level of LIL HD service that DirecTV eventually will provide
within various markets.
| Quote: | What about sub-channels?
What about them? DirecTV isn't providing them in Detroit, and has
announced they will *not* do so.
|
See above. |
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David Levy
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: Is Tivo still in business?? |
|
|
Jeff Rife wrote:
| Quote: | Since subscribers can receive MPEG-4 from DirecTV with *any* DVR,
it's possible that one that does it will have TiVo software.
|
If a compatible TiVo-based DirecTV DVR were to become available, no
one would be happier about this than I would. At the present time,
however, no such unit has been announced.
It's abundantly clear that Murdoch and company have gone out of their
way to sever DirecTV's ties to TiVo, and it appears as though only a
massive subscriber backlash would persuade them to reconsider the
decision. Unfortunately, I doubt that this will occur.
| Quote: | Based on the reliabilty of *every* other DVR vs. TiVo, I suspect
that DirecTV will end up with multiple software platforms on
their MPEG-4 DVRs, just like they did for their MPEG-2 DVRs.
|
Indeed, units from both NDS and Ucentric are in development. |
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