| Author |
Message |
Codifus
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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Brian wrote:
| Quote: | I was messing around the other day with my home stereo, and decided to
play a cd through the DVD player, using the fiber optic digital audio
hookup. I thought it sounded better than the cd player, but then again
my cd player is 15 years old, so it might not have been a fair
comparison.
I have also heard that
DVD players seldom sound near as good as a quality CD
player.
I had the same experience. |
I have a Denon DCM-370 CD changer with the Burr Brown DAC. In a previous
post in this thread I mistakenly thought I had the 270, but it is the 370.
Anyhow, I bought a Panasonic DVD player, the S-35. All I wanted was a
DVD player that played MP3 discs. I was not even concerned about sound
quality when I bought it. After several months of use I casually started
to notice that the Panasonic sounded really good. I did some comparison,
no doubt the tests I conducted woudn't pass Arny Krueger's litmus test,
but it was good enough for me, and I found that the Panasonic DVD player
blew away my Burr Brown Denon CD player, without even trying.
I attribute this to the fact that the Panasonic uses upsampling and I'm
pretty sure that the Denon 370 does not.
CD
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DaveL
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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Did you do the headphone mod? It's supposed to increase the sound quality
on the DCM-370.
"Codifus" <codifus@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:ZZ4af.38704$rE2.30469@fe10.lga...
| Quote: | I had the same experience.
I have a Denon DCM-370 CD changer with the Burr Brown DAC. In a previous
post in this thread I mistakenly thought I had the 270, but it is the 370.
Anyhow, I bought a Panasonic DVD player, the S-35. All I wanted was a DVD
player that played MP3 discs. I was not even concerned about sound quality
when I bought it. After several months of use I casually started to notice
that the Panasonic sounded really good. I did some comparison, no doubt
the tests I conducted woudn't pass Arny Krueger's litmus test, but it was
good enough for me, and I found that the Panasonic DVD player blew away my
Burr Brown Denon CD player, without even trying.
|
Blew it away in what way?
| Quote: |
I attribute this to the fact that the Panasonic uses upsampling and I'm
pretty sure that the Denon 370 does not.
CD |
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DaveL
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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"Mark D. Zacharias" <spammenot@nonsense.net> wrote in message
news:zB2af.11880
| Quote: | Denon late model optical players are some of the least reliable ever made
and they don't support them worth a damn. NAD is average at best, Marantz
is Philips-built. Stay away.
For mass market stuff go with Pioneer number 1, Sony 2.
Mark Z.
|
I'll agree about the Denon. If mine did not sound so good I would not have
it. The thing uses leaf switch for carousel sensors and does not use them
in good ways either. My unit had problems out of the box but I fix it by
cleaning all the leaf switches. No doubt this is the source of the
reliability issues.
DaveL |
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Codifus
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:13 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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DaveL wrote:
| Quote: | Did you do the headphone mod? It's supposed to increase the sound
quality on the DCM-370.
"Codifus" <codifus@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:ZZ4af.38704$rE2.30469@fe10.lga...
I had the same experience.
I have a Denon DCM-370 CD changer with the Burr Brown DAC. In a
previous post in this thread I mistakenly thought I had the 270, but
it is the 370.
Anyhow, I bought a Panasonic DVD player, the S-35. All I wanted was a
DVD player that played MP3 discs. I was not even concerned about sound
quality when I bought it. After several months of use I casually
started to notice that the Panasonic sounded really good. I did some
comparison, no doubt the tests I conducted woudn't pass Arny Krueger's
litmus test, but it was good enough for me, and I found that the
Panasonic DVD player blew away my Burr Brown Denon CD player, without
even trying.
Blew it away in what way?
I attribute this to the fact that the Panasonic uses upsampling and
I'm pretty sure that the Denon 370 does not.
CD
What's the headphone mod? |
The Panasonic was just much more pleasant to listen to. I imagine a
newer Denon with BurrBrown DAC and upsampling would leveled the playing
field. This is a somewhat un-fair comparison because the 370 is an old
unit compared to the newish Panasonic.
CD |
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DaveL
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:25 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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Wow, Arny. That's quite a diatribe you have there.
I only paid $75 shipped for the Denon. I was not expecting miracles but did
really get one. The Yamaha did suck badly and always did. I never liked
its sound but put up with it because it was convenient. The thing always
sounded digital and induced listener fatigue especially during complex
passages like crescendos and such. Also the bass was boomy. I always
thought I had a nasty resonance in my room but no, it was the Yamaha. It
donned on me when I realized my tuner did not have the same resonance.
After swapping the players I had to re-adjust the EQ. Now I only have two
octaves that need to be adjusted. Before nearly all were.
Ask yourself. Does your cd player sound harsh? Does it sound different
than the same album on vinyl? Does it sound ok when the music is at a quiet
passage but gets confused sounding during the climax?
Arny, poor tracking? They either track or they skip. Tracking has nothing
to do with sound quality. Dried caps? Oh sure dried caps are the root of
all that is evil :) Seriously, unless the caps are of a faulty design they
won't begin to dry out for at least 20 years.
DaveL
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:cZWdnXkol-3TVPXeRVn-sw@comcast.com...
| Quote: | "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote in message
news:xdGdnff9YtrDOfreRVn-oA@comcast.com
I don't know if I qualify as a techie but I did recently
replace my Yamaha CD changer with a Denon unit that has
an onboard Burr-Brown DAC and the difference in sound
quality (frequency response and audible distortion) is
startling to say the least.
Let's recap. Dave had a Yamaha in unknown operating condition. It could
have poor tracking and dried out caps, as well as many other technical
faults. He might never know it until he buys a new player that will likely
track well and be in pretty good operating condition.
Ever hear of the parable of the boiled frog?
http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/boiled.html
There's also the slight matter of excitement and feelings of optimism that
can arise when one buys something new. Not a problem, it can actually be
a pretty neat experience, but that loud slam you just heard is objectivity
running out the door.
Dave then attributes all of his favorable perceptions to the manufacturer
of the DAC chips in the new player.
Are there any people who can sucessfully do critical thinking in the
house? ;-)
To say that they have all reached perfection is incorrect.
Needless to say, Dave is basing this conclusion on who-knows-what. Really,
there are so many extraneous influences that its hard to count them.
I have also heard that
DVD players seldom sound near as good as a quality CD
player.
Dave re-pledges his allegance to his new overpriced, obsolete-when-built,
CD player.
You probably should audition many of them back
to back and hear for yourself.
Been there, done that.
If you match levels, time-synch the discs, and manage listener bias (which
almost nobody ever does), then a ton of them starting at about $39.95 are
sonically indistinguishable.
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DaveL
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb. There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.
DaveL
"Codifus" <codifus@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pA5af.7801$ex4.2059@fe08.lga...
| Quote: | DaveL wrote:
Did you do the headphone mod? It's supposed to increase the sound
quality on the DCM-370.
What's the headphone mod?
The Panasonic was just much more pleasant to listen to. I imagine a newer
Denon with BurrBrown DAC and upsampling would leveled the playing field.
This is a somewhat un-fair comparison because the 370 is an old unit
compared to the newish Panasonic.
CD |
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Stewart Pinkerton
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote:
| Quote: | Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb.
|
Did his astrologer tell him that?
| Quote: | There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.
|
Wow! Imagine the distortion that a five-wire cable might cause......
Puhhhhllleeeeeeeese!
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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Stewart Pinkerton
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:11 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:25:52 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote:
<snip numerous lines of bullshit>
| Quote: | Ask yourself. Does your cd player sound harsh? Does it sound different
than the same album on vinyl?
|
I'd be bloody horrified if it didn't !!
| Quote: | Does it sound ok when the music is at a quiet
passage but gets confused sounding during the climax?
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Nope.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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Codifus
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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DaveL wrote:
| Quote: | Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb. There is a three wire cable that
connects from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right
corner. You simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it
eliminates the distortion.
DaveL
"Codifus" <codifus@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pA5af.7801$ex4.2059@fe08.lga...
DaveL wrote:
Did you do the headphone mod? It's supposed to increase the sound
quality on the DCM-370.
What's the headphone mod?
The Panasonic was just much more pleasant to listen to. I imagine a
newer Denon with BurrBrown DAC and upsampling would leveled the
playing field. This is a somewhat un-fair comparison because the 370
is an old unit compared to the newish Panasonic.
CD
Maybe thats why I like my Panasonic better! I'm going to fiddle with |
that headphone connection and see what happens.
CD |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:59 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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"DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote in message
news:2b2dnb-b_9D7dfXenZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@comcast.com
| Quote: | Ask yourself. Does your cd player sound harsh?
|
Whenever it's playing a CD that sounds harsh.
| Quote: | Does it sound different than the same album on vinyl?
|
If a CD player doesn't sound different from vinyl as a rule,
that would be grounds for throwing it away. I had well over
1000 albums when I bought my CD player. Within a year I was
so sick of the poorer sound quality of the LPs that I
started selling them off in volume.
It's almost a sure thing that any CD was mastered
differently from the corresponding LP. Therefore its
unlikely that they would sound alike on equally accurate
players.
| Quote: | Does it
sound ok when the music is at a quiet passage but gets
confused sounding during the climax?
|
It does this whenever its playing a CD that is recorded that
way.
| Quote: | Arny, poor tracking? They either track or they skip.
|
Wrong, in a way. Not all skips are audible as tics and pops.
Some of them are treated with a process called "error
concealment". There's no standard for how "error
concealment" is done, and it can have varying effects on the
music.
| Quote: | Tracking has nothing to do with sound quality.
|
A machine with subtle bad tracking can definately have
something to do with sound quality.
| Quote: | Dried caps? Oh sure dried caps are the root of all that
is
evil :) Seriously, unless the caps are of a faulty
design they won't begin to dry out for at least 20 years.
|
It's true that electrolytic caps should live for at least 20
years, but nothing is perfect. I've got a Sony with such
dried out caps on the output that the bass rolls off rapidly
below about 100 Hz. |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dmhim1hjapiktemff9qjjqfdso78bv862n@4ax.com
| Quote: | On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake
wrote:
Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced
into the entire playback from the headphone pcb.
Did his astrologer tell him that?
|
Good question. Seems very unlikely.
Guy was probably doing a sighted evaluation.
OTOH, there might be something to it:
Here's more details:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/226.html
"To improve the sound of a Denon DCM-370, just unplug the
three conductor cable running from the main circuit card to
the little circuit card by the headphone jack. Some sort of
ESD or overvoltage protection components for the headphone
jack cause distortion even at the rear panel output of this
CD player. Of course this mod disables the headphone jack,
but this is easily reversible.
"Of course, it seems possible to change or remove the
headphone protection components, but this would be more
difficult and perhaps would cause reliablilty problems. I'm
not sure what their purpose is.
"If you want to get a quick idea of the sonic effect, use
the Denon remote and set the output level down to -6. Then
turn up the gain in the amplifier to get the same loudness.
Removing the cable as described above is even more
effective. |
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Geoff@home
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dmhim1hjapiktemff9qjjqfdso78bv862n@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote:
Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb.
Did his astrologer tell him that?
There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.
Wow! Imagine the distortion that a five-wire cable might cause......
Puhhhhllleeeeeeeese!
|
There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the headphone sub-board. I
would guess it is degrading an inadequate power supply branch.
geoff |
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Stewart Pinkerton
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:21 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:00:54 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dmhim1hjapiktemff9qjjqfdso78bv862n@4ax.com
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake
wrote:
Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced
into the entire playback from the headphone pcb.
Did his astrologer tell him that?
Good question. Seems very unlikely.
Guy was probably doing a sighted evaluation.
OTOH, there might be something to it:
Here's more details:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/226.html
"To improve the sound of a Denon DCM-370, just unplug the
three conductor cable running from the main circuit card to
the little circuit card by the headphone jack. Some sort of
ESD or overvoltage protection components for the headphone
jack cause distortion even at the rear panel output of this
CD player. Of course this mod disables the headphone jack,
but this is easily reversible.
"Of course, it seems possible to change or remove the
headphone protection components, but this would be more
difficult and perhaps would cause reliablilty problems. I'm
not sure what their purpose is.
"If you want to get a quick idea of the sonic effect, use
the Denon remote and set the output level down to -6. Then
turn up the gain in the amplifier to get the same loudness.
Removing the cable as described above is even more
effective.
|
Fair enough. It is indeed a truism that there is no technology which
cannot be badly implemented! :-(
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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Stewart Pinkerton
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:21 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:42:28 +1300, "Geoff@home"
<geoff@nospam-paf.co.nz> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dmhim1hjapiktemff9qjjqfdso78bv862n@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote:
Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb.
Did his astrologer tell him that?
There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.
Wow! Imagine the distortion that a five-wire cable might cause......
Puhhhhllleeeeeeeese!
There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the headphone sub-board. I
would guess it is degrading an inadequate power supply branch.
|
Possibly. There certainly seems to be some indication that there is
something fundamentally incompetent in this device. One does of course
wonder if the OP actually heard anything, or simply discovered the
same URL that Arny did, and *then* began to 'hear' things.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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wß
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:07 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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"Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Quick question for the techies out there.
Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which
are audibly flawed?
From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection
a few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my
ancient (i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening
first, to see how important it is in the grand scheme of things.
However, the only modern CD player I have available is a no-name DVD
player (matsumagnashitasonic or some such thing). Can I count on
something this cheap to be audibly nonexistent, or am I going to have
to borrow at least a name-brand item from someone?
Thanks,
Colin
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Give the newer ones from NAD a listen. |
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