| Author |
Message |
DaveL
Guest
|
 Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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| Quote: | "Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dmhim1hjapiktemff9qjjqfdso78bv862n@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote:
Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb.
Did his astrologer tell him that?
There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.
Wow! Imagine the distortion that a five-wire cable might cause......
Puhhhhllleeeeeeeese!
There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the headphone sub-board. I
would guess it is degrading an inadequate power supply branch.
Possibly. There certainly seems to be some indication that there is
something fundamentally incompetent in this device. One does of course
wonder if the OP actually heard anything, or simply discovered the
same URL that Arny did, and *then* began to 'hear' things.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
|
Actually I did hear of the mod from several sources. I did not do a before
and after test but I can tell you that this unit sounds really good and far
better than my Yamaha unit. If you believe that they all sound the same
then go ahead and keep your head (or ears) in the sand. How many
audiophiles are spending thousands on high end cd players and separate dacs?
I guess they are all wasting their money when they could have done like you
and bought the cheapest no name unit and had the same sound. If you believe
that all cd players have a perfectly flat frequency response and virtually
no distortion then you are simply ignorant to the truth.
DaveL
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Colin B.
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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Colin B. <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Quick question for the techies out there.
Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which are
audibly flawed?
From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player (matsumagnashitasonic or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand item from
someone?
|
Might as follow up my own posting.
Plugged the DVD player into the preamp, burned a copy of Kind of Blue, and
compared it very informally to my Denon DCM-340. First thing I noticed is
that (since I didn't have any way of adjusting levels, although I could have
measured them) when there were drums or trumpet playing, the DVD player was
louder. After a while, I started to think that it was _only_ in the high
end - the bass didn't seem to be any different at all.
More listening, both through the headphones and speakers, and I definitely
got the impression that the high frequencies were a bit more prominent in
the DVD player. Spent a few hours going back and forth, reading, eating,
trying to guess (and not remember) which player it was on, and getting it
right about 90% of the time. Curiously, every time I noticed something that
sounded like it might be 'wrong,' it turned out to be on the old Denon.
Better? I think so. Significantly? Nope. If there's any difference, it's
about an order of magnitude less than between the Denon and my friend's
similarly-aged pioneer.
I'd like to do some proper testing of it at some point, but that's going to
be a bit tough without some serious equipment and a patient cohort.
Colin |
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Stewart Pinkerton
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:05 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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|
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:30:10 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote:
| Quote: | "Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dmhim1hjapiktemff9qjjqfdso78bv862n@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote:
Actually I did hear of the mod from several sources. I did not do a before
and after test but I can tell you that this unit sounds really good and far
better than my Yamaha unit. If you believe that they all sound the same
then go ahead and keep your head (or ears) in the sand.
|
It's not a 'belief', it's a *fact* that I'm happy to demonstrate to
anyone who cares to bring along their idea of a SOTA player.
http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/stewart_p/stewart_p.html
| Quote: | How many
audiophiles are spending thousands on high end cd players and separate dacs?
I guess they are all wasting their money when they could have done like you
and bought the cheapest no name unit and had the same sound. If you believe
that all cd players have a perfectly flat frequency response and virtually
no distortion then you are simply ignorant to the truth.
|
If you believe that in 2005 they don't, then your ignorance is truly
appalling.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:27 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
|
|
"DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote in message
news:sMGdnZ10scDoJPfenZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@comcast.com
| Quote: | "Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:dmhim1hjapiktemff9qjjqfdso78bv862n@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake
wrote:
There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the
headphone sub-board. I would guess it is degrading an
inadequate power supply branch.
Possibly. There certainly seems to be some indication
that there is something fundamentally incompetent in
this device. One does of course wonder if the OP
actually heard anything, or simply discovered the same
URL that Arny did, and *then* began to 'hear' things. --
Actually I did hear of the mod from several sources. I
did not do a before and after test but I can tell you
that this unit sounds really good and far better than my
Yamaha unit.
|
Dave, if you don't compare these units level-matched,
time-synched, and bias-controlled they are going to sound
different and its very likely that given the rampant
hysteria about good sound among inexperienced audiophiles,
you'll think that one sounds better than the other.
But, don't you think that favoring the sound of one player
over another when one is louder than the other is kinda
trivial?
| Quote: | If you believe that they all sound the same
then go ahead and keep your head (or ears) in the sand.
|
"Head in the sand" is a good phrase to use to describe
audiophiles who don't take the time and effort to compare
players properly.
| Quote: | How many audiophiles are spending thousands on high end
cd players and separate dacs?
|
Not that many, any more. Probably not that many even in the
heyday of high end players and DACs. But, just because there
are people with more money than brains doesn't mean that we
should all emulate them.
| Quote: | I guess they are all wasting their money
|
For many people, audio is about conspicious consumption. I
happen to live in a community where conspicious consumption
tends more towards 55' boats and $million dollar houses.
Audio tends to take a back seat, but across town where the
lakes are a so small that 55' boats don't make a lot of
sense...
| Quote: | when they could have done like you
and bought the cheapest no name unit and had the same
sound.
|
You got to watch the *really* cheap stuff, but someplace
around $100 optical players get interesting.
| Quote: | If you believe that all cd players have a
perfectly flat frequency response and virtually no
distortion then you are simply ignorant to the truth.
|
So Dave, tell us about all the measurements of DACs and CD
players that you've done.
Here are some of mine:
http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/summary/index.htm
http://www.pcavtech.com/adc-dac/summary/index.htm
Now, what is it that you want to tell me about DAC and
optical player sound quality, Dave? |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
|
|
"Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote in
message news:436adfc7@news.nucleus.com
| Quote: | Plugged the DVD player into the preamp, burned a copy of
Kind of Blue, and compared it very informally to my Denon
DCM-340. First thing I noticed is that (since I didn't
have any way of adjusting levels, although I could have
measured them) when there were drums or trumpet playing,
the DVD player was louder.
|
You know this is really sad. You may be bright enough that
you seem to realize that your listening test might not be
worth squat unless you adjusted the levels of the two
players within 0.1 dB.
You say you have the means to match levels, which I might
doubt but I'll take what you say at face value.
Nevertheless you just launched into a long rambling
dissertation about what you thought you heard, when your
listening test is obviously, grotesquely and fundamentally
flawed. |
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Harry Lavo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:01 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
|
|
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:7NSdncrCAeHeyfbeRVn-sg@comcast.com...
| Quote: | "Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote in
message news:436adfc7@news.nucleus.com
snip
|
| Quote: |
Nevertheless you just launched into a long rambling dissertation about
what you thought you heard, when your listening test is obviously,
grotesquely and fundamentally flawed.
|
Not given to overstatement, are you Arny? |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
|
|
"Harry Lavo" <hlavo@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:wZCdnSsC97Rt5fbeRVn-iQ@comcast.com
| Quote: | "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:7NSdncrCAeHeyfbeRVn-sg@comcast.com...
"Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote in
message news:436adfc7@news.nucleus.com
snip
Nevertheless you just launched into a long rambling
dissertation about what you thought you heard, when your
listening test is obviously, grotesquely and
fundamentally flawed.
Not given to overstatement, are you Arny?
|
Harry, you're just miffed because you're obviously very
light on personal, hands-on experience with proper audio
evaluation techniques. Indeed like Mirabel, you've made a
Usenet career of defending flawed techniques and criticizing
good ones. |
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DaveL
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
|
|
Hi Arny,
All I know is what my ears tell me. But your measurements prove my point.
None of the analog output specs are the same. They all vary. This means
the all sound a little bit different. The difference may be slight but it
is still there. It could be like Stewart says that the newer players have
less variance. I can accept that. But please believe me that my Denon does
sound better than my Yamaha. This is no lie or misjudgment.
DaveL
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:7NSdncvCAeHeyfbeRVn-sg@comcast.com...
| Quote: | "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote in message
news:sMGdnZ10scDoJPfenZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@comcast.com
"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:dmhim1hjapiktemff9qjjqfdso78bv862n@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake
wrote:
There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the
headphone sub-board. I would guess it is degrading an
inadequate power supply branch.
Possibly. There certainly seems to be some indication
that there is something fundamentally incompetent in
this device. One does of course wonder if the OP
actually heard anything, or simply discovered the same
URL that Arny did, and *then* began to 'hear' things. --
Actually I did hear of the mod from several sources. I
did not do a before and after test but I can tell you
that this unit sounds really good and far better than my
Yamaha unit.
Dave, if you don't compare these units level-matched, time-synched, and
bias-controlled they are going to sound different and its very likely that
given the rampant hysteria about good sound among inexperienced
audiophiles, you'll think that one sounds better than the other.
But, don't you think that favoring the sound of one player over another
when one is louder than the other is kinda trivial?
If you believe that they all sound the same
then go ahead and keep your head (or ears) in the sand.
"Head in the sand" is a good phrase to use to describe audiophiles who
don't take the time and effort to compare players properly.
How many audiophiles are spending thousands on high end
cd players and separate dacs?
Not that many, any more. Probably not that many even in the heyday of high
end players and DACs. But, just because there are people with more money
than brains doesn't mean that we should all emulate them.
I guess they are all wasting their money
For many people, audio is about conspicious consumption. I happen to live
in a community where conspicious consumption tends more towards 55' boats
and $million dollar houses. Audio tends to take a back seat, but across
town where the lakes are a so small that 55' boats don't make a lot of
sense...
when they could have done like you
and bought the cheapest no name unit and had the same
sound.
You got to watch the *really* cheap stuff, but someplace around $100
optical players get interesting.
If you believe that all cd players have a
perfectly flat frequency response and virtually no
distortion then you are simply ignorant to the truth.
So Dave, tell us about all the measurements of DACs and CD players that
you've done.
Here are some of mine:
http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/summary/index.htm
http://www.pcavtech.com/adc-dac/summary/index.htm
Now, what is it that you want to tell me about DAC and optical player
sound quality, Dave?
|
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Colin B.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:19 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
|
|
Arny Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote in
message news:436adfc7@news.nucleus.com
Plugged the DVD player into the preamp, burned a copy of
Kind of Blue, and compared it very informally to my Denon
DCM-340. First thing I noticed is that (since I didn't
have any way of adjusting levels, although I could have
measured them) when there were drums or trumpet playing,
the DVD player was louder.
You know this is really sad. You may be bright enough that
you seem to realize that your listening test might not be
worth squat unless you adjusted the levels of the two
players within 0.1 dB.
|
Arny, I have defended DBT to the n'th degree. I've agreed ad nauseum on the
criticality of proper testing and the existence of listener bias. Thus,
please allow me to offer the following advice.
FUCK OFF! Take a valium. Take two! Wipe the spittle off your chin, and then
come back and reread my post.
Nowhere did I mention the word "test" in my post, except at the end. This
was an evening of playing. This was entertainment. This was interest. This
was at the VERY most, a way of deciding for myself if I should pursue real
testing methodology.
| Quote: | You say you have the means to match levels, which I might
doubt but I'll take what you say at face value.
|
You misread. I said that I do NOT have the means to match levels--only to
measure them. A test-tone CD and an oscilloscope (or even a good DVM, for
that matter) should accomplish that quite nicely. Matching them is another
matter altogether of course, and neither player has an output level
adjustment.
| Quote: | Nevertheless you just launched into a long rambling
dissertation about what you thought you heard, when your
listening test is obviously, grotesquely and fundamentally
flawed.
|
Well yes, that was sort of the point. Again I'll point out that this wasn't
a test. You may have noticed (although apparently not) the use of phrases
such as "got the impression," "started to think," and "I think so."
If you had read, you may have also noticed that I finished with "I'd like
to do some proper testing of it at some point..."
Let me explain in simple words: If I could not find any reliable difference
in a situation that uncontrolled, then there's little or no point in doing a
tightly controlled level-matched DBT. On the other hand, if I BELIEVE (note
the use of a word that indicates opinion in the absence of fact) that I
could detect a difference, then on to the proper methodology to see if it's
a level-matching problem, a perceptional error (i.e. bias towards one player
in a sighted evaluation), or an actual difference in response between the
players. The third is the least likely, although given the age of my Denon,
at least possible.
Furthermore, my OPINIONS (note again, the use of one of "those" words) from
playing around are something that can quite easily be tested, and may in
fact get done. It seemed like the high-frequency was different between the
two players. Well I can either to a formal DBT as mentioned above, or measure
the frequency response of the players. Come to think of it, that might be
a relatively easy test to manage. I've got test CDs with 20Hz-20kHz sweep
tracks on them, at different levels. Run the players into the computer,
record the tracks, and (after digitally adjusting the levels) subtract them.
Any problems with that?
And finally, in the future it would do you well to make an _attempt_
to understand what people are saying before getting up in arms.
Colin |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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|
"Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote in
message news:436bd241@news.nucleus.com
| Quote: | Arny Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:
"Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote in
message news:436adfc7@news.nucleus.com
Plugged the DVD player into the preamp, burned a copy of
Kind of Blue, and compared it very informally to my
Denon DCM-340. First thing I noticed is that (since I
didn't have any way of adjusting levels, although I
could have measured them) when there were drums or
trumpet playing, the DVD player was louder.
You know this is really sad. You may be bright enough
that you seem to realize that your listening test might
not be worth squat unless you adjusted the levels of the
two players within 0.1 dB.
Arny, I have defended DBT to the n'th degree.
|
Mere words with no actions to back them up.
| Quote: | I've agreed
ad nauseum on the criticality of proper testing and the
existence of listener bias.
|
Lip service.
| Quote: | Thus, please allow me to offer the following advice.
FUCK OFF! Take a valium. Take two! Wipe the spittle off
your chin, and then come back and reread my post.
|
This childish language just goes to show how immature and
irrational you are.
| Quote: | Nowhere did I mention the word "test" in my post, except
at the end.
|
You're just playing with words.
| Quote: | This was an evening of playing. This was
entertainment. This was interest. This was at the VERY
most, a way of deciding for myself if I should pursue
real testing methodology.
|
You're just defending doing some stupid stuff and then
extensively bragging about it in public.
| Quote: | You say you have the means to match levels, which I might
doubt but I'll take what you say at face value.
You misread. I said that I do NOT have the means to match
levels--only to measure them. A test-tone CD and an
oscilloscope (or even a good DVM, for that matter) should
accomplish that quite nicely. Matching them is another
matter altogether of course, and neither player has an
output level adjustment.
|
Adding external volume controls isn't rocket science. It's
not even very costly.
| Quote: | Nevertheless you just launched into a long rambling
dissertation about what you thought you heard, when your
listening test is obviously, grotesquely and
fundamentally flawed.
Well yes, that was sort of the point. Again I'll point
out that this wasn't a test.
|
You're dissembling.
You're lazy, both practically and intellectually. |
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Colin B.
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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|
Wow.
I'm speechless. Congratulations Arny. You win. |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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|
"DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote in message
news:ydCdndibAtzjDfbenZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@comcast.com
| Quote: | All I know is what my ears tell me.
|
Unless you're careful, your ears tell you that different
music played at significantly different loudnesses sounds
different. Kinda trivial eh?
| Quote: | But your measurements prove my point.
|
No they don't.
| Quote: | None of the analog output specs are the same.
|
So what? As long as the variations are in the range that
nobody can hear, its all moot.
So what? The precision with which we can measure variations
in audio gear is so great that its getting a little
ludicrous.
| Quote: | This means the all sound a little bit different.
|
Not at all. Just because something measures different
doesn't mean that it sounds different.
For example, frequency response curves that are within 0.2
dB 20-20 KHz can't be audibly distinguished. At the
frequency extremes, far greater variations can't be heard.
Please see:
http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/FR/index.htm
http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/THD/index.htm
http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/IM/index.htm
For information about the limits of audibility of
performance specs.
For another example, no form of distortion that is below
0.01 % (-80 dB) can be heard. In most cases that can be
raised to 0.03% or more.
| Quote: | The difference may be slight but it is still there.
|
So what? |
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Mr.T
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
|
|
"DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote in message
news:sMGdnZ10scDoJPfenZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Actually I did hear of the mod from several sources. I did not do a
before
and after test but I can tell you that this unit sounds really good and
far
better than my Yamaha unit. If you believe that they all sound the same
then go ahead and keep your head (or ears) in the sand. How many
audiophiles are spending thousands on high end cd players and separate
dacs?
I guess they are all wasting their money when they could have done like
you
and bought the cheapest no name unit and had the same sound.
|
Or they could have bought a cheapish player and spent the difference on
better speakers, giving a *FAR* greater improvement. The reason they don't
is ignorance, or the desire for something *other* than a sonic improvement.
(eg. bragging rights)
| Quote: | If you believe
that all cd players have a perfectly flat frequency response and virtually
no distortion then you are simply ignorant to the truth.
|
If you believe you can really hear the minute differences in any *competent*
player, then you should do a double blind reality check.
OTOH, anyone can hear the differences between speakers. Put your money where
it does some *actual* good, or throw it away, it's your choice.
MrT. |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:44 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
|
|
"Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote in
message news:436c3ddc@news.nucleus.com
| Quote: | Wow.
I'm speechless. Congratulations Arny. You win.
|
I'm not here to win.
I'm here to wake you up. |
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Stewart Pinkerton
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject:
Re: CD player quality recommendation |
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|
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:47:31 -0800, "DaveL" <AKA Snake> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Arny,
All I know is what my ears tell me. But your measurements prove my point.
None of the analog output specs are the same. They all vary. This means
the all sound a little bit different.
|
Utter rubbish. These variations are *way* below the threshold of
audibility.
| Quote: | The difference may be slight but it
is still there. It could be like Stewart says that the newer players have
less variance. I can accept that. But please believe me that my Denon does
sound better than my Yamaha. This is no lie or misjudgment.
|
I'm sure you are not *deliberately* failing to tell the truth. I'm
equally sure that what you're saying is hogwash, as Arny has pointed
out.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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