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Bob Cain
Guest
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 Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:00 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
| Quote: | Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
You would agree, then, that atheism isn't a belief that there is no god?
No, atheism _is_ a belief that there is no god. What you are describing
is agnosticism.
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I think so too, which seems to me to make atheism yet another form of
(frequently proselytized) faith. Agnosticism is the position which is
truly devoid of faith. I don't think I've ever met an agnostic that's
the least bit invested in persuading others to his/her position (i.e.
proselytizing.)
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
A. Einstein
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Scott Dorsey
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:22 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
You would agree, then, that atheism isn't a belief that there is no god?
No, atheism _is_ a belief that there is no god. What you are describing
is agnosticism.
I think so too, which seems to me to make atheism yet another form of
(frequently proselytized) faith. Agnosticism is the position which is
truly devoid of faith. I don't think I've ever met an agnostic that's
the least bit invested in persuading others to his/her position (i.e.
proselytizing.)
|
Woody Allen was going to get married. But he was an atheist and she
was an agnostic, and they didn't know what religion not to bring the
children up.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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Jay Kadis
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:34 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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In article <dkdmnh02if@enews4.newsguy.com>, Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
You would agree, then, that atheism isn't a belief that there is no god?
No, atheism _is_ a belief that there is no god. What you are describing
is agnosticism.
I think so too, which seems to me to make atheism yet another form of
(frequently proselytized) faith. Agnosticism is the position which is
truly devoid of faith. I don't think I've ever met an agnostic that's
the least bit invested in persuading others to his/her position (i.e.
proselytizing.)
Bob
|
Atheism isn't a religion, it's simply a lack of one.
-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x |
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Fletch
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:31 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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Don Pearce wrote On 11/01/05 07:36,:
| Quote: | It is the proselytization I find deeply offensive, preying as it does on the weakness and ignorance of
the average superstitious peasant. It is tyranny, and yes, it deserves
death.
|
Let's talk about proselytizing, shall we?
The so-called Scientific community is demanding that any debate about the origins of life be limited
to their theoretical hypotheses, namely, the Big Bang, followed by the primordial ooze and the
eventual mutation upon mutation of organisms that eventually produced mankind. They will accept no
other position as containing any validity for real debate.
They demand that any debate at all is unacceptable. No "intelligent design" arguments are valid to
them because they claim it is "creationism" masquerading as pseudo-science.
It is these so-called scientists and secular humanists who are inculcating our children in the
class-room, with no debate allowed, who are engaged in the most puerile form of proselytizing. And
you cannot argue this fact, because that is what it is (at least in the United States).
And is this not a form of tyranny, as well? Yes, please, talk to me about proselytizing and tyranny
and how the Christian community is so guilty of this -- moreso than the scientific and secular
humanist community.
Science is supposed to unearth facts about how things work, whether organic or mechanical in nature.
So argue this fact: why is the scientific community so afraid of "teach the debate" as part of the
educational process? If Evolution is indeed the means by which all living systems came into being,
then what are they afraid of? The debate would inevitably tilt in their favour, would it not?
And yet, when challenged by noted scientists who do not share the Evolution view to debate the
origins of life, to come and present their evidence, their proof that Evolution is the actual manner
in which mankind -- and all living systems on earth -- came into being, not one scientist will come
forward to meet the challenge.
I make no apologies for my faith, my belief. And I would ask you one more question:
Are you willing to lay down your life in defence of what you believe to be true? It is not a
spurious question; it speaks to the heart of what we hold true. If you are not willing to die for
your beliefs, why ever would you want to live for them?
--fletch |
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Don Pearce
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:01 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:31:31 -0800, Fletch
<geoffSPAMarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Don Pearce wrote On 11/01/05 07:36,:
It is the proselytization I find deeply offensive, preying as it does on the weakness and ignorance of
the average superstitious peasant. It is tyranny, and yes, it deserves
death.
Let's talk about proselytizing, shall we?
The so-called Scientific community is demanding that any debate about the origins of life be limited
to their theoretical hypotheses, namely, the Big Bang, followed by the primordial ooze and the
eventual mutation upon mutation of organisms that eventually produced mankind. They will accept no
other position as containing any validity for real debate.
|
Science demands nothing beyond what is reasonable. If you want to
advance a theory, make it disprovable or there can be no basis for
debate.
| Quote: | They demand that any debate at all is unacceptable. No "intelligent design" arguments are valid to
them because they claim it is "creationism" masquerading as pseudo-science.
No, science has always been a hotbed of debate - that is the way it |
advances. As for intelligent design, creationism masquerading as
science is exactly what it is. It is not disprovable, therefore it is
not science.
| Quote: | It is these so-called scientists and secular humanists who are inculcating our children in the
class-room, with no debate allowed, who are engaged in the most puerile form of proselytizing. And
you cannot argue this fact, because that is what it is (at least in the United States).
It is Christianity that allows no debate - you must believe, is what |
children are told. Science on the other hand is all about debate -
that is how and why it advances. There is no "inculcation" in science
- you have a better theory, advance it. If it holds water it will
become the new paradigm.
| Quote: | And is this not a form of tyranny, as well? Yes, please, talk to me about proselytizing and tyranny
and how the Christian community is so guilty of this -- moreso than the scientific and secular
humanist community.
Science does not proselytize. It offers theories and proofs, then |
stands back. Disprove it, and it will withdraw. Provide a better
theory and it will stand aside. Christianity has no such honesty.
| Quote: | Science is supposed to unearth facts about how things work, whether organic or mechanical in nature.
So argue this fact: why is the scientific community so afraid of "teach the debate" as part of the
educational process? If Evolution is indeed the means by which all living systems came into being,
then what are they afraid of? The debate would inevitably tilt in their favour, would it not?
Because the "debate" is a nonsense. ID is not amenable to debate, |
because it assumes an article of faith in its acceptance - it is like
any other religious dogma. You can't debate something that requires
faith - the religious dogma allows no debating ground. You Will
Believe, is what religion says.
| Quote: | And yet, when challenged by noted scientists who do not share the Evolution view to debate the
origins of life, to come and present their evidence, their proof that Evolution is the actual manner
in which mankind -- and all living systems on earth -- came into being, not one scientist will come
forward to meet the challenge.
Utter nonsense, the fossil line from slime mould to human is complete. |
Every scientific test that can be applied comes up with the same kind
of number for the age of the earth.In astrophysics these numbers tie
up nicely with the ages of the solar system and universe. WHat does
religion offer us - 4004BC? Try and beat actual evidence with the tosh
in the bible.
| Quote: | I make no apologies for my faith, my belief. And I would ask you one more question:
You should. You are evidently a man with a brain. It is to your |
eternal shame that you choose to deny it.
| Quote: | Are you willing to lay down your life in defence of what you believe to be true? It is not a
spurious question; it speaks to the heart of what we hold true. If you are not willing to die for
your beliefs, why ever would you want to live for them?
What a load of cock. You have to be a brainwashed religio to spout |
something like this.
d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com |
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spambucket
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:03 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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| Quote: | In article <dkds34$4b$1@news1nwk.SFbay.Sun.COM>,
geoffSPAMarnold@hotmail.com wrote:
Are you willing to lay down your life in defence of what you believe to be
true? It is not a
spurious question; it speaks to the heart of what we hold true. If you are
not willing to die for
your beliefs, why ever would you want to live for them?
--fletch
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Ha, ha! Um, you're joking, right?
-------------------------------------------
http://www.richardwhitehouse.ca |
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Scott Dorsey
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:09 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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| Quote: | They demand that any debate at all is unacceptable. No "intelligent design" arguments are valid to
them because they claim it is "creationism" masquerading as pseudo-science.
|
If you can't prove or disprove them, it's not science. If you make
a statement that cannot possibly proven or disproven without an external
reference outside our universe, that's not science.
Now, it might well be true. But it's not science.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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Fletch
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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Scott Dorsey wrote On 11/03/05 13:09,:
| Quote: | They demand that any debate at all is unacceptable. No "intelligent design" arguments are valid to
them because they claim it is "creationism" masquerading as pseudo-science.
If you can't prove or disprove them, it's not science. If you make
a statement that cannot possibly proven or disproven without an external
reference outside our universe, that's not science.
Now, it might well be true. But it's not science.
--scott
|
I won't argue this point.
However, there is very real hard science engaged in investigating the Evolutionist point of view,
challenging its validity. For example, we all know carbon dating is a flawed means to determine age,
but it is "accepted", flaws and all, as valid "evidence" of claims that things such as dinosaurs are
65,000,000 years old.
Even when faced with the fact that they discovered still elastic ligaments, blood vessels and
cellular structure in the femur bone of a tyranosaur unearthed in 2003 in Montana, they balked at
the idea the animal was still anything less than 62,000,000 years old, preferring to say that the
sediment must have had some "preservative" quality to keep them extant over such a vast period of
time. This is not science -- but they claim it is what they are engaged in. The existence of this
elastic material, et al, is a fact.
Polonium halos in granite shouldn't exist given that scientists claim granite took some 4,000,000
years to cool off. But the half life of polonium 235 is approximately 30 seconds. If their "facts"
are correct, these halos shouldn't be there. But the truth speaks to the contrary.
Co mingling dinosaur and human tracks, in the same sedimentary layer of earth in a stream bed in
Texas, crossing paths, gives rise to the probability, not possibility, of co-existence. Yet,
scientists insist the evidence, quite clear and irrefutable, can't be as it appears. There has to be
another explanation. Maybe there is, but I would be hard pressed to believe human foot impressions
in the now limeSTONE could be made 60 million years later, especially at the same layer. So, too,
would an honest scientist.
All stellar bodies outside the Milky Way galaxy are red shifted. This means they are receding from
our point in space -- in every direction, all stellar bodies are red shifted. The suggestion is
staggering to think, but the spectral analysis evidence does not lie. It says something very
specific about our position in the Universe as a whole.
I would hope the Evolutionist would be willing to consider the idea of "irreducible complexity" as
something they cannot easily explain away. All elements of a cell must be present for it to
function, period. This, too, is a fact. Remove any one element and the cell dies.
These are just a few facts, offered as evidence against the dogma of Evolutionary theory.
Given that none of us in this exchange are scientists, we are all suspect in our motives. Though I
would hope we are all open minded enough to view anything offered sincerely as something to consider.
To believe in an absolutist fashion that there is no intelligence behind what we are and where we
"live" is to close yourself off to a whole avenue of investigation.
--fletch |
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Bob Cain
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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Jay Kadis wrote:
| Quote: | In article <dkdmnh02if@enews4.newsguy.com>, Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com
wrote:
I think so too, which seems to me to make atheism yet another form of
(frequently proselytized) faith. Agnosticism is the position which is
truly devoid of faith. I don't think I've ever met an agnostic that's
the least bit invested in persuading others to his/her position (i.e.
proselytizing.)
Atheism isn't a religion, it's simply a lack of one.
|
I absolutely agree that atheism is not a religion. Nonetheless, as most
commonly professed, it _is_ faith in a belief. It is no more provable
that a god doesn't exist than that one does. The positions merely
reflect opposing postulates. To me this skewers atheism with the same
sword that atheists attempt to use on religion.
Arguments against that are based on unfulfilled expectations of what a
"real" god should do are only reflections of the beliefs of he who so
argues and say nothing whatsoever about god.
FWIW, I am agnostic. I simply don't know. If, however, I knew that the
truth were to be somehow unequivocally revealed tomorrow and that bets
were being taken I think I'd make a low stake bet against.
OTOH, I'm known to hedge my bets if the stakes are high. :-)
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
A. Einstein |
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Dr. Dolittle
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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Bob Cain wrote:
| Quote: |
Jay Kadis wrote:
In article <dkdmnh02if@enews4.newsguy.com>, Bob Cain
arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
I think so too, which seems to me to make atheism yet another form of
(frequently proselytized) faith. Agnosticism is the position which
is truly devoid of faith. I don't think I've ever met an agnostic
that's the least bit invested in persuading others to his/her
position (i.e. proselytizing.)
Atheism isn't a religion, it's simply a lack of one.
I absolutely agree that atheism is not a religion. Nonetheless, as most
commonly professed, it _is_ faith in a belief. It is no more provable
that a god doesn't exist than that one does. The positions merely
reflect opposing postulates. To me this skewers atheism with the same
sword that atheists attempt to use on religion.
Arguments against that are based on unfulfilled expectations of what a
"real" god should do are only reflections of the beliefs of he who so
argues and say nothing whatsoever about god.
FWIW, I am agnostic. I simply don't know. If, however, I knew that the
truth were to be somehow unequivocally revealed tomorrow and that bets
were being taken I think I'd make a low stake bet against.
OTOH, I'm known to hedge my bets if the stakes are high. :-)
Bob
|
Here is an excellent resource about atheists & agnostics:
http://www.2think.org/hii/atheism.shtml
And a history of God:
http://www.2think.org/hii/god.shtml |
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Geoff@home
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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"Fletch" <geoffSPAMarnold@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| Quote: | These are just a few facts, offered as evidence against the dogma of
Evolutionary theory.
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Highly flawed facts.
geoff |
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Geoff@home
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dkdo21$hk3$1@panix2.panix.com...
| Quote: |
Woody Allen was going to get married. But he was an atheist and she
was an agnostic, and they didn't know what religion not to bring the
children up.
--scott
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....and the agnostic dyslexic insomniac who lays awake all night worrying
about whether or not there really is a dog.
geoff |
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Geoff@home
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:dke8tq0cg4@enews1.newsguy.com...
| Quote: |
Jay Kadis wrote:
In article <dkdmnh02if@enews4.newsguy.com>, Bob Cain
arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
I think so too, which seems to me to make atheism yet another form of
(frequently proselytized) faith. Agnosticism is the position which is
truly devoid of faith. I don't think I've ever met an agnostic that's
the least bit invested in persuading others to his/her position (i.e.
proselytizing.)
Atheism isn't a religion, it's simply a lack of one.
I absolutely agree that atheism is not a religion. Nonetheless, as most
commonly professed, it _is_ faith in a belief. It is no more provable
that a god doesn't exist than that one does.
|
You can't prove I'm not the Sugar-plum Fairy either. What do you think is
likely ?
geoff |
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Mike Dobony
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:14 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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"Don Pearce" <donald@pearce.uk.com> wrote in message
news:436777c7.269709703@news.plus.net...
| Quote: | On 31 Oct 2005 11:27:42 -0800, "Lauren the Ravishing"
lauren_the_ravishing@yahoo.com> wrote:
Damien must have been pleased.
Everybody with a brain should be pleased. Poetic justice, or what?
More please!!!
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??????????????????????
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Dale Farmer
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: Ground Fault kills Church Pastor |
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Fletch wrote:
| Quote: | John O wrote On 11/04/05 09:53,:
You people are all wrong. The world was created by an intelligent
designer,
Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Pastafarians unite!!
Now, *that's* funny.
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Have YOU been touched by his noodley appendage?
--Dale |
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