| Author |
Message |
George Kerby
Guest
|
 Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:43 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
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On 10/30/05 11:30 AM, in article ql0am1dasgl6sf8vgmfvhd2ij9iacpeldh@4ax.com,
"Bill Funk" <BigBill@pipping.com.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On 30 Oct 2005 16:19:06 GMT, George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com
wrote:
On 10/30/05 8:10 AM, in article vvk9m1p7g3li55cqrh3ts50j3g8r377elq@4ax.com,
"Bill Funk" <BigBill@pipping.com.com> wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 01:21:28 -0500, "jean" <try_to@find.it> wrote:
Cell phones get their time from the network so no adjustment needed.
In my experience, DIGITAL cell phons do this, but if you're using an
older analog phone, they don't get their time from the system.
Yeah, I know, who ues an older analog phone anymore? But If you're
roaming in an analog area, beware.
Even with digital, you will have to "re-boot" the phone by turning it off
and then back on.
Why?
When leaving an analog area, I don't have to reboot the phone; when it
checks into a digital network, it gets all necessary info, including
time.
When entering an analog area, it doesn't need a reboot either.
So what's the need to reboot?
I don't know why. All I know is that is necessary with a Motorola Quad-Band |
GSM on Cingular network. Maybe somweone here will tell us WHY. All I know is
that it IS necessary.
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Paul Allen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:50 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
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Dave Martindale wrote:
| Quote: | "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" writes:
GPS units are fundamentally about knowing the precise time. They get
UTC from the satellites, calculate position by triangulation, and
therefore can calculate local time. I have to believe that the GPS
system knows all about the latest "savings time" rules all over the
planet.
The GPS *system* operates in GPS time. It marches forward at exactly
the same rate as UTC, but GPS time doesn't have leap seconds, so there
are always exactly the same number of seconds in a year, and so GPS time
and UTC differ by an integer number of seconds.
GPS receivers get GPS time from the satellites, plus a data field
giving the current offset between GPS time and UTC, plus a flag
indicating that a leap second is coming. So they have all the
information needed to provide UTC, exactly, if they want to.
But GPS receivers generally don't know what time zone you are in,
because they don't include detailed maps of time zone boundaries. Once
*you* tell the receiver what your local time zone is, and whether it
observes daylight savings time, some receivers will handle the ST/DST
switch automatically - if you're in one of the countries it's been
programmed for. If any of this works, it's because of software in the
receiver - the GPS system knows nothing about local time.
|
Of course the system knows nothing about local time. And I'm
pretty sure my 1997-vintage GPS receiver doesn't know anything
about time zone boundaries. It also has no way for me to tell it
the local offset from UTC. But, I took it out in the front yard this
morning and told it to do a cold start. It thought for a while
and then announced that it knew my location, the current UTC time,
and the correct local time (8 hours behind UTC). How did it do that
if the system didn't know how to tell it my time zone offset?
| Quote: | Now, if I could just rig everything so that my GPS would use
bluetooth to update the microwave, the answering machine, the stove,
the camera, the VCR, etc. What's all this technology for anyway, if it
can't take care of this sort of thing for me? :-)
Yeah, and when the USA changes the dates that DST starts, all this
technology will make the change automatically on the wrong date...
|
That's why it's a mistake to embed knowledge of DST transition dates in
software or firmware. Just let NTP or the GPS system take care of it.
Paul Allen |
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George Kerby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:52 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
|
|
On 10/30/05 12:53 PM, in article 301020051353005941%fort514@mac.com,
"Charles" <fort514@mac.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <ql0am1dasgl6sf8vgmfvhd2ij9iacpeldh@4ax.com>, Bill Funk
BigBill@pipping.com.com> wrote:
Why?
When leaving an analog area, I don't have to reboot the phone; when it
checks into a digital network, it gets all necessary info, including
time.
When entering an analog area, it doesn't need a reboot either.
So what's the need to reboot?
I don't know why but if the phone is on, Verizon CDMA V60, it does not
auto change the time to from daylight savings to standard. To get the
correct time I have to turn the phone off and back on.
My computer, a Mac, changed the time this morning, it gets the time
from a network time server, but the newsreader program I use has to be
closed and reopened or it shows the wrong time after the time change.
|
Conclusion from this and the immediate preceeding post by ASAAR: Macs are
smarter than both the Cellular phone system OS and MS Operating system.
BTW: Both my PC and Mac knew what time it was this morning but the Mac was
running all night in sleep mode.
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Paul Allen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:52 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
|
|
Bruce Coryell wrote:
| Quote: | One more fillip: The whole daylight savings time shebang changes in
2007 when the energy savings bill goes into effect. I just leave my
digicams on EST all year long. Windoze makes the time change
automatically, but Linux doesn't, so I have to change my Linux box
manually.
|
Configure the Linux box to use NTP and it'll handle time changes
automatically.
Paul Allen |
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George Kerby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:53 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
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On 10/30/05 1:17 PM, in article dk367h$601$1@mughi.cs.ubc.ca, "Dave
Martindale" <davem@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | "jean" <try_to@find.it> writes:
Cell phones get their time from the network so no adjustment needed.
You're putting an awful lot of trust in the people who run "the
network". My cellphone is configured to get the time from the network,
and when we changed to daylight savings time last spring it took several
*days* for all of the cell sites to be updated properly. At one point,
the time was an hour off in one place in the city and correct in
another.
We just switched back to standard time this morning. 10 hours later,
the phones are still displaying daylight savings time.
Dave
Try turning it off and on again. What do you have to lose? |
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Måns Rullgård
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:14 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
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Paul Allen <"paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net"> writes:
| Quote: | Bruce Coryell wrote:
One more fillip: The whole daylight savings time shebang changes in
2007 when the energy savings bill goes into effect. I just leave
my digicams on EST all year long. Windoze makes the time change
automatically, but Linux doesn't, so I have to change my Linux box
manually.
Configure the Linux box to use NTP and it'll handle time changes
automatically.
|
NTP uses UTC, so it doesn't make a difference. What makes a
difference is the timezone setting. Setting it to Europe/London makes
it do the right thing here in the UK. Another country with the same
standard time offset might have different DST rules.
--
Måns Rullgård
mru@inprovide.com |
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Alpha
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:36 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
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"Dogfart" <flatulantdingo@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:3528159646$20051030221028@dontbotherspamming.com...
| Quote: | On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, at 02:52:42 [GMT -0600] (19:52:42 Sunday, 30 October
2005 where I live) "Ron Hunter" wrote:
Be glad you don't live in Indiana where the time varies county by county!
Why is that?
|
Extreme eastern Indiana borders the line where EDT comes into play. If they
change to daylight saving, right across the stateline they are an hour off
in the winter. Richmond Indiana and others have voted to not change to
daylight saving for this reason. |
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Bob Harrington
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:31 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
|
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ASAAR <caught@22.com> wrote in
news:vn3am15i0cupr1rm3did8ndda63a9k7vb9@4ax.com:
| Quote: | Odds are if it really needs to reboot, it's running on one of MS's
portable Windows platforms. About 10 years ago I couldn't get back
into my office because the elevator bank hadn't been operating for
nearly an hour. When I noticed the console controlling the
elevators appeared to be a Windows app. I asked building security to
reboot the computer. (I had to show them how to do it). Within
seconds after rebooting, the elevators resumed operation. :)
|
MS ElevatorXP?!?
That's it - I'm taking the stairs from now on... |
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Bryan Olson
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:46 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
|
|
Stewy wrote:
| Quote: | Gary Edstrom wrote:
. Yes, I now that daylight time is a dumb idea, but what are you
going to do? |
| Quote: | Really? You'd prefer sunrise at 4am and sunset at 4pm? Dumb and dumber!
|
Sunrise eight hours before noon and sunset four hours after?
Local time, roughly speaking, defines noon as when the Sun is most
directly overhead. Sunrise and sunset are then approximately equally
far from noon. (Earth's elliptical orbit makes the approximation
not-so-good.)
--
--Bryan |
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Ron Hunter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:48 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
|
|
Paul Allen wrote:
| Quote: | Dave Martindale wrote:
"paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" writes:
GPS units are fundamentally about knowing the precise time. They get
UTC from the satellites, calculate position by triangulation, and
therefore can calculate local time. I have to believe that the GPS
system knows all about the latest "savings time" rules all over the
planet.
The GPS *system* operates in GPS time. It marches forward at exactly
the same rate as UTC, but GPS time doesn't have leap seconds, so there
are always exactly the same number of seconds in a year, and so GPS time
and UTC differ by an integer number of seconds.
GPS receivers get GPS time from the satellites, plus a data field
giving the current offset between GPS time and UTC, plus a flag
indicating that a leap second is coming. So they have all the
information needed to provide UTC, exactly, if they want to.
But GPS receivers generally don't know what time zone you are in,
because they don't include detailed maps of time zone boundaries. Once
*you* tell the receiver what your local time zone is, and whether it
observes daylight savings time, some receivers will handle the ST/DST
switch automatically - if you're in one of the countries it's been
programmed for. If any of this works, it's because of software in the
receiver - the GPS system knows nothing about local time.
Of course the system knows nothing about local time. And I'm
pretty sure my 1997-vintage GPS receiver doesn't know anything
about time zone boundaries. It also has no way for me to tell it
the local offset from UTC. But, I took it out in the front yard this
morning and told it to do a cold start. It thought for a while
and then announced that it knew my location, the current UTC time,
and the correct local time (8 hours behind UTC). How did it do that
if the system didn't know how to tell it my time zone offset?
Now, if I could just rig everything so that my GPS would use
bluetooth to update the microwave, the answering machine, the stove,
the camera, the VCR, etc. What's all this technology for anyway, if it
can't take care of this sort of thing for me? :-)
Yeah, and when the USA changes the dates that DST starts, all this
technology will make the change automatically on the wrong date...
That's why it's a mistake to embed knowledge of DST transition dates in
software or firmware. Just let NTP or the GPS system take care of it.
Paul Allen
Ok for software, not so ok for firmware, and BAD for ROM... |
--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net |
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Bob Harrington
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:55 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
|
|
Gary Edstrom <gedstrom@pacbell.net> wrote in
news:scm9m1l3939pqnrveg0qlog0rcl9pf6r71@4ax.com:
| Quote: |
The ONLY purpose for posting this was as a friendly reminder to people
to adjust their camera clocks, something that is easy to forget. I
didn't intend to start the whole stupid DST discussion over again.
|
Appreciated. I had forgotten the DSLR as I wasted most of my "extra hour"
changing clocks, watches, answering machine, microwave, cat...
But in the spirit of the debate - we could save billions in heating, cooling
and lighting costs by simply setting our calendars and clocks ahead by six
months and twelve hours. =)
Bob ^,,^ |
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Bryan Olson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:13 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
|
|
Gary Edstrom wrote:
| Quote: | For those of you who like to have correct time stamps on your pictures,
remember to set the clock in your still and/or video camera to the
correct time.
[...]
Yes, I know that I could keep my camera on GMT so that I
would never have to adjust it, but it's too much of a hassle to mentally
convert GMT to local time every time I look at the picture.
|
Really we should convince the camera makers to get this right. Set time
and timezone separately; use UTC (also known as "GMT" or "Zulu-time")
for timestamps, and optionally also record the timezone at the source.
--
--Bryan |
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ASAAR
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
|
|
On 30 Oct 2005 19:52:31 GMT, George Kerby wrote:
| Quote: | I don't know why but if the phone is on, Verizon CDMA V60, it does not
auto change the time to from daylight savings to standard. To get the
correct time I have to turn the phone off and back on.
My computer, a Mac, changed the time this morning, it gets the time
from a network time server, but the newsreader program I use has to be
closed and reopened or it shows the wrong time after the time change.
Conclusion from this and the immediate preceeding post by ASAAR:
Macs are smarter than both the Cellular phone system OS and MS
Operating system.
|
I don't think that I said anything indicating that although it may
well have been true. It was more a comment on the legendary
instability of early versions of Windows. Recent versions are much
more stable, but it wouldn't surprise me much if the latest version
of the Mac OS was more stable than XP. Probably smarter too. :) |
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cjcampbell
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
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| Nope, they are all set to local Philippines time. :-) |
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Neil Ellwood
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject:
Re: End of Daylight Time in US: Have you changed your camera |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:52:40 -0800, Paul Allen wrote:
| Quote: | Bruce Coryell wrote:
One more fillip: The whole daylight savings time shebang changes in
2007 when the energy savings bill goes into effect. I just leave my
digicams on EST all year long. Windoze makes the time change
automatically, but Linux doesn't, so I have to change my Linux box
manually.
Configure the Linux box to use NTP and it'll handle time changes
automatically.
Paul Allen
I use mandriva 2006 beta 2 and find that it is so easy to do from the |
control centre it seems pointless to try any other way.
--
Neil
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