| Author |
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Chris F.
Guest
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 Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:11 am Post subject:
Media Salvage |
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I've run a consumer electronics repair biz for years, but in the last few
years things have really gone downhill. A few weeks ago I got to thinking;
maybe I could put skills to a more profitable use. Media salvage has been
something I'm pretty good at but never tried to make a business of. I
started playing with cassette tapes when I was 2 years old, and by 5 I had
learned how to splice my own cassettes. Also, over the years I've collected
a lot of equipment for various obsolete formats. So I finally got the idea
to try a media salvage and transfer business. I know there are people out
there with treasured recordings that cannot be played, due to damaged
cassettes or obsolete formats. So for the next few months at least, I'm
going to offer my services to the public:
http://www.geocities.com/fanjoystv/media.html
If this venture proves to be worthwhile I will invest in some more
equipment (mainly, CD and DVD recording equipment), and expand as necessary.
Let me know what you think of the site and feel free to send any
suggestions, I just put this site up and am open to any ideas.
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Mike Rivers
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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Chris F. wrote:
| Quote: | I've run a consumer electronics repair biz for years, but in the last few
years things have really gone downhill. A few weeks ago I got to thinking;
maybe I could put skills to a more profitable use. Media salvage has been
something I'm pretty good at but never tried to make a business of. I
started playing with cassette tapes when I was 2 years old, and by 5 I had
learned how to splice my own cassettes.
|
How about skipping a few generations and learning how to recover lost
data from flash cards? There'll be a demand for that sooner than later,
mark my words. |
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will
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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You may be on to something. I have no idea if it will be successful
for you. But, if you can give good service, reasonable prices and
reasonably quick turn-around it just may work out. The
shipping/insurance thing may be problematic, though.
I've operated a small studio for over twenty years and I just don't
have time and money to keep a lot of old gear maintained. Especially
if it only adds up to a very small percentage of my business. But, I
still like to keep the customer satisfied. That may be where you come
in.
If you were to have a rate for studios to use your services while still
making it reasonable for the end user - sort of a wholesale/retail
pricing system - you might do okay.
Just my 2¢ and YMMV. |
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Les Cargill
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
| Quote: | Chris F. wrote:
I've run a consumer electronics repair biz for years, but in the last few
years things have really gone downhill. A few weeks ago I got to thinking;
maybe I could put skills to a more profitable use. Media salvage has been
something I'm pretty good at but never tried to make a business of. I
started playing with cassette tapes when I was 2 years old, and by 5 I had
learned how to splice my own cassettes.
How about skipping a few generations and learning how to recover lost
data from flash cards? There'll be a demand for that sooner than later,
mark my words.
|
Never say never, but the data patterns on magnetic media are
recoverable. Once a FLASH device is toast, it's utterly gone.
--
Les Cargill |
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Chris Hornbeck
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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On 28 Oct 2005 17:51:35 -0700, "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | How about skipping a few generations and learning how to recover lost
data from flash cards? There'll be a demand for that sooner than later,
mark my words.
|
Already is, even. Had use of such this Summer and glad
of it, but the recovery rate wasn't 100% and their
website was weak. There's room for more folks, fersure.
Good fortune,
Chris Hornbeck
Gen. Miller, Gen. Sanchez, Donald Rumsfeld, President Bush. |
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J. P. Morris
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:
| Quote: | On 28 Oct 2005 17:51:35 -0700, "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com
wrote:
How about skipping a few generations and learning how to recover lost
data from flash cards? There'll be a demand for that sooner than later,
mark my words.
Already is, even. Had use of such this Summer and glad
of it, but the recovery rate wasn't 100% and their
website was weak. There's room for more folks, fersure.
|
Do you mean that they recovered data from a corrupted FAT filesystem,
or that they somehow managed to extract the datablocks from a physically
dead flash chip? Anyone could do the former, the latter would require some
pretty strange technology. In fact, I didn't think it was even possible.
| Quote: |
Good fortune,
Chris Hornbeck
Gen. Miller, Gen. Sanchez, Donald Rumsfeld, President Bush.
|
--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm@it-he.org
Anti-walkthroughs for Deus Ex, Thief and Ultima http://www.it-he.org
Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org
The DMFA radio series project http://dmfa.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976) |
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Mike Rivers
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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J. P. Morris wrote:
| Quote: | Do you mean that they recovered data from a corrupted FAT filesystem,
or that they somehow managed to extract the datablocks from a physically
dead flash chip? Anyone could do the former
|
Anyone? No, I don't think so. But at least if it can be done at all, it
can be done with fairly common disk tools. Such recovery, even on
standard hard drives, isn't always 100% complete. Depends on how the
data is written.
| Quote: | the latter would require some
pretty strange technology. In fact, I didn't think it was even possible.
|
That's what makes the job interesting (and, at least for a while,
expensive). I didn't think data could be recovered from a physically
dead hard drive either, but people put new electronics boards in drives
with a good platter and motors, or put the platters into good drive
bodies. Working inside a chip isn't quite as easy, even if you have a
clean room, but I'll bet that if you wanted the data badly enough,
there's some way of removing the case and you might find a bad lead
joint or something that can be repaired. But you'll have a hard time
finding a music fan willing to spend $5,000 to recover a recording he
thought he made of a concert. He'll just go on the net asking "does
anyone know how to read a flash card?"
On the other hand, going back to the original poster's skills, there
are probably a few people willing to pay $25 to take the crummy old
cassette of their wedding or baby's first song and have it cleaned up
and put on a CD. |
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Mike Rivers
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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Les Cargill wrote:
| Quote: | Never say never, but the data patterns on magnetic media are
recoverable. Once a FLASH device is toast, it's utterly gone.
|
GOTO Top_of_message
Just like with toast, there are almost certainly different levels of
flash card toast. |
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J. P. Morris
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
| Quote: | That's what makes the job interesting (and, at least for a while,
expensive). I didn't think data could be recovered from a physically
dead hard drive either, but people put new electronics boards in drives
with a good platter and motors, or put the platters into good drive
bodies.
|
This is fairly-well understood cold-war technology. With the correct
equipment, it is possible to read _erased_ data from a hard disk platter,
which is the US and various other governments have special procedures for
erasing classified data, overwriting it twenty times with random data or
whatever.
Just refreshing my memory on how flash works, it seems to be largely based
on a transistor/capacitor pair for each bit. You could probably read the
charge off each bit if the data was sufficiently important. Unless the
reason it has failed is because it has been exposed to beta radiation
(in which case the memory cells will have all been reset to 0).
| Quote: | Working inside a chip isn't quite as easy, even if you have a
clean room, but I'll bet that if you wanted the data badly enough,
there's some way of removing the case and you might find a bad lead
joint or something that can be repaired.
|
That would work. A few years ago I came across a fascinating article on
how it was possible to read data from smartcards and other secure
microcircuitry. With a scanning tunnelling microscope, you could probably
repair the fault with the flash chip and then read the data off normally.
--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm@it-he.org
Anti-walkthroughs for Deus Ex, Thief and Ultima http://www.it-he.org
Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org
The DMFA radio series project http://dmfa.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976) |
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Mike Rivers
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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J. P. Morris wrote:
| Quote: | Just refreshing my memory on how flash works, it seems to be largely based
on a transistor/capacitor pair for each bit. You could probably read the
charge off each bit if the data was sufficiently important. Unless the
reason it has failed is because it has been exposed to beta radiation
(in which case the memory cells will have all been reset to 0).
|
I suppose that might come up at some time, but I expect that most flash
card data loss will be a result of either cockpit trouble (you
accidentally formatted the wrong card) or a fault with the device that
the card was plugged into at the time.
| Quote: | A few years ago I came across a fascinating article on
how it was possible to read data from smartcards and other secure
microcircuitry. With a scanning tunnelling microscope, you could probably
repair the fault with the flash chip and then read the data off normally.
|
Pretty cool. There may even be imaging technology that won't disturb
the storage method but will allow you to see physical defects that
might be repairable by laser welding. They fix people like that now, so
why not micro circuits when higher resolution methods are developed? |
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Chris F.
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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| Quote: | If you were to have a rate for studios to use your services while still
making it reasonable for the end user - sort of a wholesale/retail
pricing system - you might do okay.
|
That's why I've set up a bulk pricing system ($25 first cassette, $20 each
additional). I can only offer bulk discounts to a certain extent; too much
of a discount, and it wouldn't be worth my time and effort to do the work.
Hopefully this will turn out OK; nothing would make me happier than to be
able to dump the 3+ tons of worthless electronics inventory that clutters up
my storage buildings. |
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J. P. Morris
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
| Quote: |
J. P. Morris wrote:
A few years ago I came across a fascinating article on
how it was possible to read data from smartcards and other secure
microcircuitry. With a scanning tunnelling microscope, you could
probably repair the fault with the flash chip and then read the data off
normally.
Pretty cool. There may even be imaging technology that won't disturb
the storage method but will allow you to see physical defects that
might be repairable by laser welding. They fix people like that now, so
why not micro circuits when higher resolution methods are developed?
|
With a S.T.M. you can move atoms around. I always thought it would be very
useful for repairing microcircuitry like CEM filters, which are out of
production.
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/vis/stm/atomo.html
...apparently that was one of the tricks for hacking smartcards. Although
the diagnostic board was blown, the researchers were able to repair it and
reconnect it to the main system. Once that was done, they could just pull
the data they wanted from the diagnostic I/O ports.
You could use the same technique to repair the flash chip.
--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm@it-he.org
Anti-walkthroughs for Deus Ex, Thief and Ultima http://www.it-he.org
Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org
The DMFA radio series project http://dmfa.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976) |
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Peter A. Stoll
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:17 pm Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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"J. P. Morris" <jpm@it-he.org> wrote in
news:43639939$0$73622$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net:
| Quote: | Mike Rivers wrote:
J. P. Morris wrote:
snip
microcircuitry. With a scanning tunnelling microscope, you could
probably repair the fault with the flash chip and then read the data
off normally.
Pretty cool. There may even be imaging technology that won't disturb
the storage method but will allow you to see physical defects that
might be repairable by laser welding. They fix people like that now,
so why not micro circuits when higher resolution methods are
developed?
With a S.T.M. you can move atoms around. I always thought it would be
very useful for repairing microcircuitry like CEM filters, which are
out of production.
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/vis/stm/atomo.html
snip |
I only just got out of the business recently. "Repairing" initial chip
designs that don't work has been an important part of shortening the
debug cycle in chip design since I got into the business in 1974. Back
then we hacked open aluminum conductor lines with the tungsten points on
our microprobes, then used same microprobes to inject signals into the
now dangling circuits. When the errors were bad, you could have several
probes detecting signals, a bit of TTL logic to compute needed signals
from them, and more probes to stick the good signals back in. Your
talent at this technique (and the severity of your design errors) was
roughly scored by the number of probes. I never got past four. One of
my rivals got up to at least eight.
Sometime around 1981 a technician in our outfit built an gadget at my
suggestion I dubbed the "bit-spitter" to allow even speed debug in this
case. The idea was to run the system slow enough so that the real-time
computation of desired signals to inject could work--whilst "tape-
recording" the needed signals into memory. Then, for the speed run, turn
up the clock rate and reconfigure. Remove the output tap probes so they
did not load down internal nodes (this was before the advent of pico-
probes), and reroute so that the signals for the injection probes came
from memory, not the external computation circuits.
Skipping forward to recent times, folks have for years used ion mills
(_not_ S.T.M.) to open up metal lines, drill holes through interlayer
dielectrics, etc. Focused beam deposition in the same tools allows
creation of new desired connection. Couple with hole-drilling, you can
even do multi-layer revisions--frequently necessary with modern tall
metal stacks.
All this, while entirely possible and routinely practiced, is quite
fabulously expensive. Don't plan on using it to recover Aunt Nellie's
pictures from the flash card that Junior fried when he plugged into the
wrong socket and used pliers to get around the fact it did not fit.
Peter A. Stoll |
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Paul Stamler
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:11 pm Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:1130586050.165617.107970@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | On the other hand, going back to the original poster's skills, there
are probably a few people willing to pay $25 to take the crummy old
cassette of their wedding or baby's first song and have it cleaned up
and put on a CD.
|
Which, in terms of real-world time expenditure, works out to about minimum
wage.
Peace,
Paul |
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J. P. Morris
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:03 am Post subject:
Re: Media Salvage |
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|
Peter A. Stoll wrote:
| Quote: | Skipping forward to recent times, folks have for years used ion mills
(_not_ S.T.M.) to open up metal lines, drill holes through interlayer
dielectrics, etc. Focused beam deposition in the same tools allows
creation of new desired connection. Couple with hole-drilling, you can
even do multi-layer revisions--frequently necessary with modern tall
metal stacks.
All this, while entirely possible and routinely practiced, is quite
fabulously expensive. Don't plan on using it to recover Aunt Nellie's
pictures from the flash card that Junior fried when he plugged into the
wrong socket and used pliers to get around the fact it did not fit.
|
Very cool. So it would indeed be possible to do all this, but, as I
suspected, the cost is staggering.
(Remarkably, I've just found an ion mill on ebay right now.)
--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm@it-he.org
Anti-walkthroughs for Deus Ex, Thief and Ultima http://www.it-he.org
Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org
The DMFA radio series project http://dmfa.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976) |
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