| Author |
Message |
Guest
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 Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and genera |
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Is this possible?
I was just thinking it's got to be, although FAR over my head.
If RTV calls in periodically to verify it's subscription, or HOPEFULLY
once for lifetime, couldn't you record the phone connection and play it
back to it? If it's more complicated, you'd think it could be recorde,
deciphered, and a hacked "keep alive" could be created.
Has anybody heard of any attempts to do this?
Any success?
--
_____________________________________________________
For email response, or CC, please mailto:see.my.sig.4.addr(at)bigfoot.com.
Yeah, it's really a real address :)
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John in Detroit
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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It would cost you more for the recorder than it would for a 2nd phone
line Recording this kind of thing is not easy
see.my.sig.4.addr@nowhere.com.invalid wrote:
| Quote: | Is this possible?
I was just thinking it's got to be, although FAR over my head.
If RTV calls in periodically to verify it's subscription, or HOPEFULLY
once for lifetime, couldn't you record the phone connection and play it
back to it? If it's more complicated, you'd think it could be recorde,
deciphered, and a hacked "keep alive" could be created.
Has anybody heard of any attempts to do this?
Any success?
--
_____________________________________________________
For email response, or CC, please mailto:see.my.sig.4.addr(at)bigfoot.com.
Yeah, it's really a real address :)
|
--
John F Davis, in Delightful Detroit. WA8YXM(at)arrl(dot)net
"Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business"
Diabetic? http://community.compuserve.com/diabetes |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:59 am Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 00:50:46 GMT, John in Detroit <Blanked@sbcglobal.net>
spewed:
| Quote: | It would cost you more for the recorder than it would for a 2nd phone
line Recording this kind of thing is not easy
I wondered about that. |
But couldn't you just use a microcassette recorder and one of those phone
recorder suction cup things, or better yet just a phone jack to miniplug,
and hook it to the microcassette's mic. jack?
You'd have to wait for it to dial then pick up the other line, but not too
tough if you've got a phone with a light that tells you when the line's
active.
Playing it back at the right time, and/or deciphering it would be pretty
hard though. But I bet there's got to be SOMEBODY out there who's done
it.
I mean, if people hack into govt. computers just to see if they can, this
has got to be as attractive a hack.
Maybe if M$ makes a TiVo it'll sweeten the pot ;)
| Quote: | see.my.sig.4.addr@nowhere.com.invalid wrote:
Is this possible?
I was just thinking it's got to be, although FAR over my head.
If RTV calls in periodically to verify it's subscription, or HOPEFULLY
once for lifetime, couldn't you record the phone connection and play it
back to it? If it's more complicated, you'd think it could be recorde,
deciphered, and a hacked "keep alive" could be created.
Has anybody heard of any attempts to do this?
Any success?
--
_____________________________________________________
For email response, or CC, please mailto:see.my.sig.4.addr(at)bigfoot.com.
Yeah, it's really a real address :)
|
--
_____________________________________________________
For email response, or CC, please mailto:see.my.sig.4.addr(at)bigfoot.com.
Yeah, it's really a real address :) |
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John in Detroit
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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see.my.sig.4.addr@nowhere.com.invalid wrote:
| Quote: | I wondered about that.
But couldn't you just use a microcassette recorder and one of those phone
recorder suction cup things, or better yet just a phone jack to miniplug,
and hook it to the microcassette's mic. jack?
|
Basically. NO for multiple reasons, 1: A cassette recorder has not the
fidelity needed to do the job, A good digital recorder might (Such as a
Sony HI-MD in PCM mode, but in truth I'm not sure since digital
recorders also introduct a different kind of distortion.
2nd, you need to strip out half the signal, (the "outgoing") and that
takes some very sofiscated filtering. That's where the money drains fast.
So I'd not try it.. I think someone said you don't need to anyway but
I'm not sure
Also, as for software updates.... It's been some time since DNNA did
one,there is no reason to think this is not the final update, So let it
phone home Or get it a high speed connection and let it use that
--
John F Davis, in Delightful Detroit. WA8YXM(at)arrl(dot)net
"Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business"
Diabetic? http://community.compuserve.com/diabetes |
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General Kireiko
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:21 pm Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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see.my.sig.4.addr@nowhere.com.invalid wrote:
: Has anybody heard of any attempts to do this?
Useless. Here is why.
Granted, it MAY be able to verify subscription service, BUT
1. The same guide data will be loaded during each call.
2. The clock will be set incorrectly. You'd have to know the EXACT time
to make the call so that the clock-set action is performed correctly.
I think you are better off packet sniffing and determining the structure
of information passed to the unit each night during an Ethernet net-connect.
If I were to do this, I wouldn't even bother recording modem chat.
-Doug
--
"How would you like it if you were a business executive, and when you
made a mistake, a red light went on and 18,000 people started
screaming?" - Jacques Plante, goalie
METS = My Entire Team Sucks GO RANGERS!!! |
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Mark Lloyd
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:35:21 GMT, John in Detroit
<Blanked@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
see.my.sig.4.addr@nowhere.com.invalid wrote:
I wondered about that.
But couldn't you just use a microcassette recorder and one of those phone
recorder suction cup things, or better yet just a phone jack to miniplug,
and hook it to the microcassette's mic. jack?
Basically. NO for multiple reasons, 1: A cassette recorder has not the
fidelity needed to do the job, A good digital recorder might (Such as a
Sony HI-MD in PCM mode, but in truth I'm not sure since digital
recorders also introduct a different kind of distortion.
2nd, you need to strip out half the signal, (the "outgoing") and that
takes some very sofiscated filtering. That's where the money drains fast.
|
And the connection is interactive. You'd have to listen to and decode
the outgoing parts to know when to play back the incoming parts (and
these probably change too, so there'd be an algorithm to crack too).
| Quote: | So I'd not try it.. I think someone said you don't need to anyway but
I'm not sure
Also, as for software updates.... It's been some time since DNNA did
one,there is no reason to think this is not the final update, So let it
phone home Or get it a high speed connection and let it use that
-- |
58 days until the winter solstice celebration
Mark Lloyd
has a Replay 5xxx
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
"The idea that there is an invisible being who
created and still runs this old universe is so
childish, so obviously contrived, that it is hard to
believe anyone with even a modicum of education can
still fall for that scam." |
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MegaZone
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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Mark Lloyd <mlloyd@5xxxmail.com5xxx> shaped the electrons to say:
| Quote: | And the connection is interactive. You'd have to listen to and decode
the outgoing parts to know when to play back the incoming parts (and
these probably change too, so there'd be an algorithm to crack too).
|
Yeah, it definitely changes with each call, so what you really need is
to reproduce the server's RTV runs, you can't just do a replay attack.
It'd probably be easier to attack a network connection since you can
sniff the packets a lot easier than you can make and decode a modem
connection. Anyone can download Ethereal.
But you'd still need to figure out the right responses to the units
challenges, etc.
And what's the point anyway?
-MZ
--
<URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-852-2171
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris |
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Tony D.
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:15 am Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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MegaZone wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Lloyd <mlloyd@5xxxmail.com5xxx> shaped the electrons to say:
And the connection is interactive. You'd have to listen to and decode
the outgoing parts to know when to play back the incoming parts (and
these probably change too, so there'd be an algorithm to crack too).
Yeah, it definitely changes with each call, so what you really need is
to reproduce the server's RTV runs, you can't just do a replay attack.
It'd probably be easier to attack a network connection since you can
sniff the packets a lot easier than you can make and decode a modem
connection. Anyone can download Ethereal.
But you'd still need to figure out the right responses to the units
challenges, etc.
And what's the point anyway?
|
The OP thinks there is a real easy way to steal activation. He hasn't
heard of encryption. |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:32 am Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:47:59 -0600, Mark Lloyd
<mlloyd@5xxxmail.com5xxx> wrote:
| Quote: | I would never try to get out of paying for activation (as long as
there's someone there TO pay). However, we may need something like
this someday.
|
The answer after RTV/DNNA drops support would probably be a hacked
chip without the activation loop. I imagine RTV will die because they
are too cheap from the "content" company to compete with.
I still say we will be buying content ala carte on the internet and
the content provider will give away the machine to build a customer
base. |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:16:08 -0500, Andrew Kibler <00@cwru.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | This is true. However, with all the monthly subscription $$ coming in
and little backend maintenance cashflow required, it's doubtful the
'subscription' service will ever permanently close
|
The problem is there are not enough monthlies. It is mostly lifers who
represent a liability without a revenue stream. RTV/Sonic Blue/DNNA
spent your money years ago. Now they have to pay TMS for your guide
with money they don't have anymore.
That is an impossible business model. |
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Andrew Kibler
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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see
http://www.industrialbloc.com/sites/freeplaytv/files/RNS_Protocol.pdf
Those kids made a project out of trying to do that, and although they
weren't sucessful, that paper (which is really just a re-write of
another one from 2002) is the only good thing that came of it. Even if
you were to use ethernet proxy..
1: You couldn't set the time, because the replay generates a new random
number each time. (see vtime2.pl)
2: You would be able to respond to the activation request with a http
304, but how long it would accept that is not certain. Probably a week.
3: Unknown as of yet whether you could replay the activation data, but
it's possible as it doesn't appear to be time-signed.
4: For any of this, you would need to have paid for activation of your
unit to get the activation data in the first place, as it's unique per
unit.
5: This method doesn't work to extend monthly activation, as the shut
off time is built in to the signed response.
I.E. you have to pay for what you get, and the unit truly is worth the
$300 lifetime activation fee (if you've ever priced a similar DIY
computer solution) |
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Mark Lloyd
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:32:32 -0500, Andrew Kibler <00@cwru.edu> wrote:
| Quote: |
Is this possible?
see
http://www.industrialbloc.com/sites/freeplaytv/files/RNS_Protocol.pdf
Those kids made a project out of trying to do that, and although they
weren't sucessful, that paper (which is really just a re-write of
another one from 2002) is the only good thing that came of it. Even if
you were to use ethernet proxy..
1: You couldn't set the time, because the replay generates a new random
number each time. (see vtime2.pl)
2: You would be able to respond to the activation request with a http
304, but how long it would accept that is not certain. Probably a week.
3: Unknown as of yet whether you could replay the activation data, but
it's possible as it doesn't appear to be time-signed.
4: For any of this, you would need to have paid for activation of your
unit to get the activation data in the first place, as it's unique per
unit.
5: This method doesn't work to extend monthly activation, as the shut
off time is built in to the signed response.
I.E. you have to pay for what you get, and the unit truly is worth the
$300 lifetime activation fee (if you've ever priced a similar DIY
computer solution)
|
I would never try to get out of paying for activation (as long as
there's someone there TO pay). However, we may need something like
this someday.
--
54 days until the winter solstice celebration
Mark Lloyd
has a Replay 5xxx
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
"The idea that there is an invisible being who
created and still runs this old universe is so
childish, so obviously contrived, that it is hard to
believe anyone with even a modicum of education can
still fall for that scam." |
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| Back to top |
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Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 04:16:36 GMT, Peter Kelly
<disco@no-spam.satx.rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Since you must have the numbers in front of you, what is the ratio of lifers
to monthlies?
|
Since monthly only started with the 4500 it can't be a huge number.
2xxx, 3xxx and show stopper users paid their money to a company twice
dissolved by bankruptsy. It's clear all of that money is gone. |
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Andrew Kibler
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:47:59 -0600, Mark Lloyd
mlloyd@5xxxmail.com5xxx> wrote:
I would never try to get out of paying for activation (as long as
there's someone there TO pay). However, we may need something like
this someday.
The answer after RTV/DNNA drops support would probably be a hacked
chip without the activation loop. I imagine RTV will die because they
are too cheap from the "content" company to compete with.
I still say we will be buying content ala carte on the internet and
the content provider will give away the machine to build a customer
base.
|
This is true. However, with all the monthly subscription $$ coming in
and little backend maintenance cashflow required, it's doubtful the
'subscription' service will ever permanently close - unless the 'chip'
you speak of becomes widespread. What will come first is they will no
longer sell the units, but will keep the subscription access uip for the
monthly thousands*$13. Until enough of them break and cease paying
monthly and the service becomes unprofitable. Then the few of us with
working units left and interest in them may take up that challenge. ;) |
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Peter Kelly
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: Hack: record RTV mothership's subscription signal and ge |
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gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:16:08 -0500, Andrew Kibler <00@cwru.edu> wrote:
This is true. However, with all the monthly subscription $$ coming in
and little backend maintenance cashflow required, it's doubtful the
'subscription' service will ever permanently close
The problem is there are not enough monthlies. It is mostly lifers who
represent a liability without a revenue stream. RTV/Sonic Blue/DNNA
spent your money years ago. Now they have to pay TMS for your guide
with money they don't have anymore.
That is an impossible business model.
|
Since you must have the numbers in front of you, what is the ratio of lifers
to monthlies?
Peter
--
When responding by email, please change the no-spam to disco.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Spam really sucks. |
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