| Author |
Message |
Guest
|
 Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:36 am Post subject:
DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla movi |
|
|
Is there anyone out there that can help? I'm trying to convert my vhs
to dvd so i can get the big box out of my room. i purchased the
dvdxpress and now when i try to use the direct to disk option they all
turn out with the mouths ahead of their voices. I have been putting in
chapters every 10 min, i don't know if that will hel at all. If anyone
has any opinions i would love to hear them
thanks
John
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Isis
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:45 am Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
On 27 Oct 2005 14:36:44 -0700, kube16@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Is there anyone out there that can help? I'm trying to convert my vhs
to dvd so i can get the big box out of my room. i purchased the
dvdxpress and now when i try to use the direct to disk option they all
turn out with the mouths ahead of their voices. I have been putting in
chapters every 10 min, i don't know if that will hel at all. If anyone
has any opinions i would love to hear them
thanks
John
|
I hope someone can answer this. I have the same problem. (Of course,
I'm trying to convert all of my bad Godzilla movies, so maybe that's
my problem. Is there such a thing as a 'good' Godzilla movie?)
Seriously, why would the audio not track with the video?
Isis |
|
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|
|
redflag
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:41 am Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
Isis wrote:
| Quote: |
On 27 Oct 2005 14:36:44 -0700, kube16@hotmail.com wrote:
Is there anyone out there that can help? I'm trying to convert my vhs
to dvd so i can get the big box out of my room. i purchased the
dvdxpress and now when i try to use the direct to disk option they all
turn out with the mouths ahead of their voices. I have been putting in
chapters every 10 min, i don't know if that will hel at all. If anyone
has any opinions i would love to hear them
thanks
John
I hope someone can answer this. I have the same problem. (Of course,
I'm trying to convert all of my bad Godzilla movies, so maybe that's
my problem. Is there such a thing as a 'good' Godzilla movie?)
Seriously, why would the audio not track with the video?
|
Possibly dropped frames as you capture and compress the video into your 'puter.
Or maybe the program used to capture the VHS also demuxes the captured
image and later muxes it. If there are dropped frames and demuxing going
on at the same time you can bet there'll be a problem with synchronicity
somewhere down the line.
That's why I think that capturing should be done with a simple program
that doesn't automatically do anything you haven't set it up to do.
From my experience transferring VHS to digital format I can recommend
VideoDub. If you capture at the highest resolution available in AVI
format you get the best results. At 15 frames per second, no compression,
YUY2, 720x576 resolution and PCM audio format, I've gotten results
nearly as good in quality as the original magnetic tape. However, there
is a drawback: You need lots of available hard drive space. I mean LOTS.
With the settings I mentioned, less than 15 minutes of video capture will
take up more than 20 gigs of space, so that you really, really need a
dedicated HD of 120 gigs or larger. After all, by the time you're done
capturing, editing, compressing and authoring you'll have used up at least 90
to 100 gigs. Avoid using your main hard drive for these sort of tasks;
you want your OS to work unhindered by activity elsewere on that platter.
Try to have at least one other hard drive (besides the one you'll dedicate
to capture content) so that you can store edited segments, transitions,
created titles, menu backgrounds, etc.
Otherwise, you'll have to capture by segments, compress them, store them,
delete the captured AVI and so on, and later splice the compressed video
with an editor. That's okay if you know that you stopped each captured
segment at overlapping points that you can later edit out (using
VideoDub, no less!), but it's a lot of work and requires an editor that
lets you magnify each frame down to the milisecond.
But getting back to the more important issue at hand, yes, Isis, there are
good Godzilla movies. The first one is quite good and, if my memory serves
me well, was directed by Hiroshi Inagaki, who also directed the "Samurai"
Trilogy. That seminal Godzilla featured one of Japan's greatest actors,
Takashi Shimura (he played the Professor). What good 1950s Sci-Fi movie can do
without a Professor to explain things to us?
Shimura was a regular in many Toho Studio films including some of Akira
Kurosawa's epics. Shimura played the leading roles in Kurosawa's "Drunken Angel"
and "Ikiru" (To Live). Ikiru is Japan's version of Capra's "It's a Wonderful
Life", except it's far better and much more original retelling of Tolstoy's
"The Death of Ivan Ilych".
Most of the Japanese camp of the 50s and 60s is really quite good. Of course,
the only Kurosawa films even remotely considered camp are "Yojimbo" an
"Sanjuro".
And even they are so good that they inspired a generation of American
directors including George Lucas and Clint Eastwood.
--
"Nowadays, atheism is itself *culpa levis*, as compared
with criticism of existing property relations."
"All history is nothing but a continuous transformation
of human nature."
You can access THE PEOPLE on-line by visiting
our web page at http://www.slp.org |
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redflag
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:41 am Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
kube16@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Is there anyone out there that can help? I'm trying to convert my vhs
to dvd so i can get the big box out of my room. i purchased the
dvdxpress and now when i try to use the direct to disk option they all
turn out with the mouths ahead of their voices. I have been putting in
chapters every 10 min, i don't know if that will hel at all. If anyone
has any opinions i would love to hear them
thanks
John
|
Read my response to Isis. Avoid programs that capture "direct to disk".
The problem with them is that they don't give the actors in the movie
a chance to catch their breath, to rest a while on the hard drive so that
by the time they get to the DVD disc they're too tired to keep up with the
sound track.
And if you believe that explanation you'll believe what my mom told me
when I asked her how vinyl records worked: She said that a sheet of
music was sadwiched between two layers of plastic. I broke some of her
records to see if that was true. I'll never forget the spanking that
followed!
But seriously, the best way to capture your VHS into digital is as I described
to Isis. Assuming you have the necessary HD space and/or the time and
patience to capture, edit, compress and splice segments, you should download
some of the free tools available in videohelp.com and doom9.com and use them
instead. Also, doom9.com has some very excellent guides that will help you
learn how to use some of the capture software they provide. And all for free!
--
"Nowadays, atheism is itself *culpa levis*, as compared
with criticism of existing property relations."
"All history is nothing but a continuous transformation
of human nature."
You can access THE PEOPLE on-line by visiting
our web page at http://www.slp.org |
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|
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Isis
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:41 am Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:15:08 -0400, redflag <redflag@coqui.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Isis wrote:
On 27 Oct 2005 14:36:44 -0700, kube16@hotmail.com wrote:
Is there anyone out there that can help? I'm trying to convert my vhs
to dvd so i can get the big box out of my room. i purchased the
dvdxpress and now when i try to use the direct to disk option they all
turn out with the mouths ahead of their voices. I have been putting in
chapters every 10 min, i don't know if that will hel at all. If anyone
has any opinions i would love to hear them
thanks
John
I hope someone can answer this. I have the same problem. (Of course,
I'm trying to convert all of my bad Godzilla movies, so maybe that's
my problem. Is there such a thing as a 'good' Godzilla movie?)
Seriously, why would the audio not track with the video?
Possibly dropped frames as you capture and compress the video into your 'puter.
Or maybe the program used to capture the VHS also demuxes the captured
image and later muxes it. If there are dropped frames and demuxing going
on at the same time you can bet there'll be a problem with synchronicity
somewhere down the line.
That's why I think that capturing should be done with a simple program
that doesn't automatically do anything you haven't set it up to do.
From my experience transferring VHS to digital format I can recommend
VideoDub. If you capture at the highest resolution available in AVI
format you get the best results. At 15 frames per second, no compression,
YUY2, 720x576 resolution and PCM audio format, I've gotten results
nearly as good in quality as the original magnetic tape. However, there
is a drawback: You need lots of available hard drive space. I mean LOTS.
With the settings I mentioned, less than 15 minutes of video capture will
take up more than 20 gigs of space, so that you really, really need a
dedicated HD of 120 gigs or larger. After all, by the time you're done
capturing, editing, compressing and authoring you'll have used up at least 90
to 100 gigs. Avoid using your main hard drive for these sort of tasks;
you want your OS to work unhindered by activity elsewere on that platter.
Try to have at least one other hard drive (besides the one you'll dedicate
to capture content) so that you can store edited segments, transitions,
created titles, menu backgrounds, etc.
Otherwise, you'll have to capture by segments, compress them, store them,
delete the captured AVI and so on, and later splice the compressed video
with an editor. That's okay if you know that you stopped each captured
segment at overlapping points that you can later edit out (using
VideoDub, no less!), but it's a lot of work and requires an editor that
lets you magnify each frame down to the milisecond.
But getting back to the more important issue at hand, yes, Isis, there are
good Godzilla movies. The first one is quite good and, if my memory serves
me well, was directed by Hiroshi Inagaki, who also directed the "Samurai"
Trilogy. That seminal Godzilla featured one of Japan's greatest actors,
Takashi Shimura (he played the Professor). What good 1950s Sci-Fi movie can do
without a Professor to explain things to us?
Shimura was a regular in many Toho Studio films including some of Akira
Kurosawa's epics. Shimura played the leading roles in Kurosawa's "Drunken Angel"
and "Ikiru" (To Live). Ikiru is Japan's version of Capra's "It's a Wonderful
Life", except it's far better and much more original retelling of Tolstoy's
"The Death of Ivan Ilych".
Most of the Japanese camp of the 50s and 60s is really quite good. Of course,
the only Kurosawa films even remotely considered camp are "Yojimbo" an
"Sanjuro".
And even they are so good that they inspired a generation of American
directors including George Lucas and Clint Eastwood.
|
Hi R-F,
Thanks for the way-cool response: who says that literacy & nerdiness
can't co-exist in a single entity?
I didn't grasp all of what you said yet, but I printed it out for
future reference. At least I have the 250 GB secondary HD; the bad
part is that 230 GB is filled with .mp3's. Have to back it up to DVD
data discs, I guess.
Meanwhile I am going to put all of the Godzilla's (and all the others
that you mentioned) at the top of my NetFlix queue.
Btw, I like Eastwood's directing: his first (not self-directed - no
challenge there!) was a 1973 B summer flick that never went anywhere,
"Breezy" w/Wm. Holden & a score by Alan & Marilyn Bergman. It's always
been one of my favorites.
I wander OT.
Thanks for all of the info,
Isis |
|
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|
|
Ken Maltby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:15 am Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
"redflag" <redflag@coqui.net> wrote in message
news:43616D8C.C361759E@coqui.net...
| Quote: |
Isis wrote:
On 27 Oct 2005 14:36:44 -0700, kube16@hotmail.com wrote:
Is there anyone out there that can help? I'm trying to convert my vhs
to dvd so i can get the big box out of my room. i purchased the
dvdxpress and now when i try to use the direct to disk option they all
turn out with the mouths ahead of their voices. I have been putting in
chapters every 10 min, i don't know if that will hel at all. If anyone
has any opinions i would love to hear them
thanks
John
I hope someone can answer this. I have the same problem. (Of course,
I'm trying to convert all of my bad Godzilla movies, so maybe that's
my problem. Is there such a thing as a 'good' Godzilla movie?)
Seriously, why would the audio not track with the video?
Possibly dropped frames as you capture and compress the video into your
'puter.
Or maybe the program used to capture the VHS also demuxes the captured
image and later muxes it. If there are dropped frames and demuxing going
on at the same time you can bet there'll be a problem with synchronicity
somewhere down the line.
That's why I think that capturing should be done with a simple program
that doesn't automatically do anything you haven't set it up to do.
From my experience transferring VHS to digital format I can recommend
VideoDub. If you capture at the highest resolution available in AVI
format you get the best results. At 15 frames per second, no compression,
YUY2, 720x576 resolution and PCM audio format, I've gotten results
nearly as good in quality as the original magnetic tape. However, there
is a drawback: You need lots of available hard drive space. I mean LOTS.
With the settings I mentioned, less than 15 minutes of video capture will
take up more than 20 gigs of space, so that you really, really need a
dedicated HD of 120 gigs or larger. After all, by the time you're done
capturing, editing, compressing and authoring you'll have used up at least
90
to 100 gigs. Avoid using your main hard drive for these sort of tasks;
you want your OS to work unhindered by activity elsewere on that platter.
Try to have at least one other hard drive (besides the one you'll dedicate
to capture content) so that you can store edited segments, transitions,
created titles, menu backgrounds, etc.
Otherwise, you'll have to capture by segments, compress them, store them,
delete the captured AVI and so on, and later splice the compressed video
with an editor. That's okay if you know that you stopped each captured
segment at overlapping points that you can later edit out (using
VideoDub, no less!), but it's a lot of work and requires an editor that
lets you magnify each frame down to the milisecond.
But getting back to the more important issue at hand, yes, Isis, there are
good Godzilla movies. The first one is quite good and, if my memory serves
me well, was directed by Hiroshi Inagaki, who also directed the "Samurai"
Trilogy. That seminal Godzilla featured one of Japan's greatest actors,
Takashi Shimura (he played the Professor). What good 1950s Sci-Fi movie
can do
without a Professor to explain things to us?
Shimura was a regular in many Toho Studio films including some of Akira
Kurosawa's epics. Shimura played the leading roles in Kurosawa's "Drunken
Angel"
and "Ikiru" (To Live). Ikiru is Japan's version of Capra's "It's a
Wonderful
Life", except it's far better and much more original retelling of
Tolstoy's
"The Death of Ivan Ilych".
Most of the Japanese camp of the 50s and 60s is really quite good. Of
course,
the only Kurosawa films even remotely considered camp are "Yojimbo" an
"Sanjuro".
And even they are so good that they inspired a generation of American
directors including George Lucas and Clint Eastwood.
|
That has got to be the worst approach to transferring video from
VHS to DVD that I've ever heard of. It is now obvious that "RedFlag"
is a masochist as well as a communist.
The most practical and easiest approach is to buy a DVD Recorder.
The issues with VHS recording center around correcting the effects of
tape playback, the stretching of the tape and other factors that result in
variation of the nature of the analog signal off the VHS player. Most DVD
Recorders include circuitry to correct for this, normally including a TBC
(Time Base Corrector) and some NR (noise reduction).
If the audio and video is in sync as it is captured, then the A/D chip
can provide a linkage between a field of video and the audio data for
that time period. This data relationship thereafter exists whether the
audio and video are muxed or separate. Programs like VideoReDo
can use that data relationship to correct where there are breaks in the
audio or video sequence of frames (Dropouts). Even if there were a
significant difference at capture, so that the A/D chip "tagged" the wrong
audio to the video fields, the data relationship is such that a shift can be
made to correct the sync. www.VideoReDo.com
If you use a DVD RW disk or a DVD RAM disk, in your DVD
Recorder, you can bring that to your PC for any needed correction
and to properly author a DVD-/+R.
The only DVDExpress that I've heard of is a DVD rental site.
Could you provide a better description of it?
Luck;
Ken |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rachel and Garry
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
I think the OP is talking about the DVD Xpress from ADSTech,
http://www.adstech.com/products/USBAV_701/intro/usb701intro.asp?pid=USBAV701
which I have tried to use but I think it is a horrid thing. I have the
patience of a Christmas Tree in February, so perhaps others will have more
tolerance but I took mine back to PC World and am now using a DVD recorder
instead. I have to say, I am so disappointed at the overall quality that I
have managed to produce on DVD though - it is nothing compared to watching
the camcorder tape itself (Video 8) plugged in to the TV.
I'm not sure where the bulk of the quality loss is occurring and, short of
spending hours and hours on each tape, and taking up 100 GB with
uncompressed video, if there is anything I can do.
Rachel
~*~
"Life is like a hot bath - the longer it lasts the more wrinkled you get!"
"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:g-edndmk99pALvzeRVn-hA@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
"redflag" <redflag@coqui.net> wrote in message
news:43616D8C.C361759E@coqui.net...
Isis wrote:
On 27 Oct 2005 14:36:44 -0700, kube16@hotmail.com wrote:
Is there anyone out there that can help? I'm trying to convert my vhs
to dvd so i can get the big box out of my room. i purchased the
dvdxpress and now when i try to use the direct to disk option they all
turn out with the mouths ahead of their voices. I have been putting in
chapters every 10 min, i don't know if that will hel at all. If anyone
has any opinions i would love to hear them
thanks
John
I hope someone can answer this. I have the same problem. (Of course,
I'm trying to convert all of my bad Godzilla movies, so maybe that's
my problem. Is there such a thing as a 'good' Godzilla movie?)
Seriously, why would the audio not track with the video?
Possibly dropped frames as you capture and compress the video into your
'puter.
Or maybe the program used to capture the VHS also demuxes the captured
image and later muxes it. If there are dropped frames and demuxing going
on at the same time you can bet there'll be a problem with synchronicity
somewhere down the line.
That's why I think that capturing should be done with a simple program
that doesn't automatically do anything you haven't set it up to do.
From my experience transferring VHS to digital format I can recommend
VideoDub. If you capture at the highest resolution available in AVI
format you get the best results. At 15 frames per second, no compression,
YUY2, 720x576 resolution and PCM audio format, I've gotten results
nearly as good in quality as the original magnetic tape. However, there
is a drawback: You need lots of available hard drive space. I mean LOTS.
With the settings I mentioned, less than 15 minutes of video capture will
take up more than 20 gigs of space, so that you really, really need a
dedicated HD of 120 gigs or larger. After all, by the time you're done
capturing, editing, compressing and authoring you'll have used up at
least 90
to 100 gigs. Avoid using your main hard drive for these sort of tasks;
you want your OS to work unhindered by activity elsewere on that platter.
Try to have at least one other hard drive (besides the one you'll
dedicate
to capture content) so that you can store edited segments, transitions,
created titles, menu backgrounds, etc.
Otherwise, you'll have to capture by segments, compress them, store them,
delete the captured AVI and so on, and later splice the compressed video
with an editor. That's okay if you know that you stopped each captured
segment at overlapping points that you can later edit out (using
VideoDub, no less!), but it's a lot of work and requires an editor that
lets you magnify each frame down to the milisecond.
But getting back to the more important issue at hand, yes, Isis, there
are
good Godzilla movies. The first one is quite good and, if my memory
serves
me well, was directed by Hiroshi Inagaki, who also directed the "Samurai"
Trilogy. That seminal Godzilla featured one of Japan's greatest actors,
Takashi Shimura (he played the Professor). What good 1950s Sci-Fi movie
can do
without a Professor to explain things to us?
Shimura was a regular in many Toho Studio films including some of Akira
Kurosawa's epics. Shimura played the leading roles in Kurosawa's "Drunken
Angel"
and "Ikiru" (To Live). Ikiru is Japan's version of Capra's "It's a
Wonderful
Life", except it's far better and much more original retelling of
Tolstoy's
"The Death of Ivan Ilych".
Most of the Japanese camp of the 50s and 60s is really quite good. Of
course,
the only Kurosawa films even remotely considered camp are "Yojimbo" an
"Sanjuro".
And even they are so good that they inspired a generation of American
directors including George Lucas and Clint Eastwood.
That has got to be the worst approach to transferring video from
VHS to DVD that I've ever heard of. It is now obvious that "RedFlag"
is a masochist as well as a communist.
The most practical and easiest approach is to buy a DVD Recorder.
The issues with VHS recording center around correcting the effects of
tape playback, the stretching of the tape and other factors that result in
variation of the nature of the analog signal off the VHS player. Most DVD
Recorders include circuitry to correct for this, normally including a TBC
(Time Base Corrector) and some NR (noise reduction).
If the audio and video is in sync as it is captured, then the A/D chip
can provide a linkage between a field of video and the audio data for
that time period. This data relationship thereafter exists whether the
audio and video are muxed or separate. Programs like VideoReDo
can use that data relationship to correct where there are breaks in the
audio or video sequence of frames (Dropouts). Even if there were a
significant difference at capture, so that the A/D chip "tagged" the wrong
audio to the video fields, the data relationship is such that a shift can
be
made to correct the sync. www.VideoReDo.com
If you use a DVD RW disk or a DVD RAM disk, in your DVD
Recorder, you can bring that to your PC for any needed correction
and to properly author a DVD-/+R.
The only DVDExpress that I've heard of is a DVD rental site.
Could you provide a better description of it?
Luck;
Ken
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redflag
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
Ken Maltby wrote:
| Quote: |
That has got to be the worst approach to transferring video from
VHS to DVD that I've ever heard of. It is now obvious that "RedFlag"
is a masochist as well as a communist.
|
Why all the snobbery? We're all amateurs here. I believe that the reason
most of us come here to discuss these issues is because we want to
solve a technical problem and at the same time learn something new. If that's
masochism, I plead guilty as hell. But what you call "masochism" I call
investing a little time, effort, imagination and good faith. It's a
matter of perspective.
I'll leave the gratuitous and back-handed reference to my "communism"
unanswered except to say that I have no axes to grind with anyone here
or elsewhere.
| Quote: |
The most practical and easiest approach is to buy a DVD Recorder.
|
Maybe the easiest, but not necessarily the most practical (I'm assuming
that your definition of "practical" includes the matter of money).
Once you accomplish the task of tranferring all your old VHS onto disc,
using the DVD recorder, what next?
I suggest that the recorder will sit there, under our TVs, like so many of
our old VHS player/recorders, just waiting to become obsolete or, at best,
redundant.
The urge to go out and buy the latest gizmo is a typically American and
consumerist one. I personally object to it because it's wasteful and,
in the long run, disappointing.
One of the most frequent requests I've seen here is for help in resolving
a DVD issue either cheaply or gratis. Given the costs involved in this
hobby of ours, I think it's legitimate to want inexpensive or free solutions.
In a world ruled by economic concerns, that's the most _practical_ approach
to solving these kinds of problems. Wouldn't you agree?
Also, by transferring from one format to another as I suggested, there is
the potential of learning a little bit of how it all works while saving
a considerable ammount of money.
I think that the PC is the way to go for the task of managing and reproducing
our home-made media. It is the device that synthesizes all of our current
communication and entertainment needs. You are probably aware that eventually
all of our media experience at home will be managed by a CPU centrally located
somewhere in the house. By then perhaps the video disc willbe as obsolete as
as the vinyl record, having been replaced by credit card-sized media with
capture chips embedded within them, much like what our present photo cameras
use nowadays.
| Quote: | The issues with VHS recording center around correcting the effects of
tape playback, the stretching of the tape and other factors that result in
variation of the nature of the analog signal off the VHS player. Most DVD
Recorders include circuitry to correct for this, normally including a TBC
(Time Base Corrector) and some NR (noise reduction).
If the audio and video is in sync as it is captured, then the A/D chip
can provide a linkage between a field of video and the audio data for
that time period. This data relationship thereafter exists whether the
audio and video are muxed or separate. Programs like VideoReDo
can use that data relationship to correct where there are breaks in the
audio or video sequence of frames (Dropouts). Even if there were a
significant difference at capture, so that the A/D chip "tagged" the wrong
audio to the video fields, the data relationship is such that a shift can be
made to correct the sync. www.VideoReDo.com
If you use a DVD RW disk or a DVD RAM disk, in your DVD
Recorder, you can bring that to your PC for any needed correction
and to properly author a DVD-/+R.
The only DVDExpress that I've heard of is a DVD rental site.
Could you provide a better description of it?
Luck;
Ken
|
--
"Nowadays, atheism is itself *culpa levis*, as compared
with criticism of existing property relations."
"All history is nothing but a continuous transformation
of human nature."
You can access THE PEOPLE on-line by visiting
our web page at http://www.slp.org |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ken Maltby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:24 pm Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
"Rachel and Garry" <rmpublic@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Ikq8f.50328$Ih5.34504@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: | I think the OP is talking about the DVD Xpress from ADSTech,
http://www.adstech.com/products/USBAV_701/intro/usb701intro.asp?pid=USBAV701
which I have tried to use but I think it is a horrid thing. I have the
patience of a Christmas Tree in February, so perhaps others will have more
tolerance but I took mine back to PC World and am now using a DVD recorder
instead. I have to say, I am so disappointed at the overall quality that I
have managed to produce on DVD though - it is nothing compared to watching
the camcorder tape itself (Video 8) plugged in to the TV.
I'm not sure where the bulk of the quality loss is occurring and, short of
spending hours and hours on each tape, and taking up 100 GB with
uncompressed video, if there is anything I can do.
Rachel
~*~
"Life is like a hot bath - the longer it lasts the more wrinkled you get!"
|
I'm not a camcorder guy and am not sure which format
"Video 8" actually is. It shouldn't matter in relation to
how it appears played from the camera to the TV, as the
connection would be limited to, at best, S-Video. You
should be able to fully capture any S-Video signal's video
and audio content, to DVD. Have you tried setting your
DVD Recorder to its highest settings? You should expect
no more than an hour of recording for the highest settings.
The signal your camera is providing your TV must conform
to the NTSC or PAL standards, your DVD Recorder
should have no problem capturing to the same quality as the
TV can playback. This is not a case where you are extracting
digital or analog data at a higher definition.
If you could mention the make&model of your camcorder,
or at least the image size and frames per second (fpc) of the
video it is supplying to the TV. It is even possible that the
DVD Recorder is stretching your camera's image to a larger
image storage size, while the TV's image display is a closer
match.
Bottom line; the DVD should be a pretty close match to
what you see on the TV, from the camera, if things are setup
and working right.
Luck;
Ken |
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|
|
redflag
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
Isis wrote:
| Quote: |
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:15:08 -0400, redflag <redflag@coqui.net> wrote:
Isis wrote:
On 27 Oct 2005 14:36:44 -0700, kube16@hotmail.com wrote:
Is there anyone out there that can help? I'm trying to convert my vhs
to dvd so i can get the big box out of my room. i purchased the
dvdxpress and now when i try to use the direct to disk option they all
turn out with the mouths ahead of their voices. I have been putting in
chapters every 10 min, i don't know if that will hel at all. If anyone
has any opinions i would love to hear them
thanks
John
I hope someone can answer this. I have the same problem. (Of course,
I'm trying to convert all of my bad Godzilla movies, so maybe that's
my problem. Is there such a thing as a 'good' Godzilla movie?)
Seriously, why would the audio not track with the video?
Possibly dropped frames as you capture and compress the video into your 'puter.
Or maybe the program used to capture the VHS also demuxes the captured
image and later muxes it. If there are dropped frames and demuxing going
on at the same time you can bet there'll be a problem with synchronicity
somewhere down the line.
That's why I think that capturing should be done with a simple program
that doesn't automatically do anything you haven't set it up to do.
From my experience transferring VHS to digital format I can recommend
VideoDub. If you capture at the highest resolution available in AVI
format you get the best results. At 15 frames per second, no compression,
YUY2, 720x576 resolution and PCM audio format, I've gotten results
nearly as good in quality as the original magnetic tape. However, there
is a drawback: You need lots of available hard drive space. I mean LOTS.
With the settings I mentioned, less than 15 minutes of video capture will
take up more than 20 gigs of space, so that you really, really need a
dedicated HD of 120 gigs or larger. After all, by the time you're done
capturing, editing, compressing and authoring you'll have used up at least 90
to 100 gigs. Avoid using your main hard drive for these sort of tasks;
you want your OS to work unhindered by activity elsewere on that platter.
Try to have at least one other hard drive (besides the one you'll dedicate
to capture content) so that you can store edited segments, transitions,
created titles, menu backgrounds, etc.
Otherwise, you'll have to capture by segments, compress them, store them,
delete the captured AVI and so on, and later splice the compressed video
with an editor. That's okay if you know that you stopped each captured
segment at overlapping points that you can later edit out (using
VideoDub, no less!), but it's a lot of work and requires an editor that
lets you magnify each frame down to the milisecond.
But getting back to the more important issue at hand, yes, Isis, there are
good Godzilla movies. The first one is quite good and, if my memory serves
me well, was directed by Hiroshi Inagaki, who also directed the "Samurai"
Trilogy. That seminal Godzilla featured one of Japan's greatest actors,
Takashi Shimura (he played the Professor). What good 1950s Sci-Fi movie can do
without a Professor to explain things to us?
Shimura was a regular in many Toho Studio films including some of Akira
Kurosawa's epics. Shimura played the leading roles in Kurosawa's "Drunken Angel"
and "Ikiru" (To Live). Ikiru is Japan's version of Capra's "It's a Wonderful
Life", except it's far better and much more original retelling of Tolstoy's
"The Death of Ivan Ilych".
Most of the Japanese camp of the 50s and 60s is really quite good. Of course,
the only Kurosawa films even remotely considered camp are "Yojimbo" an
"Sanjuro".
And even they are so good that they inspired a generation of American
directors including George Lucas and Clint Eastwood.
Hi R-F,
Thanks for the way-cool response: who says that literacy & nerdiness
can't co-exist in a single entity?
|
Gee, thanks, Isis. But before you go flattering me any more--lest my
ego get the best of me--let me say that I was wrong about who directed
the first and best of the Godzilla films. The director of "Gojira", the
original "Godzilla" was Ishiro Honda, not Hiroshi Inagaki. Takashi
Shimura did star in "Gojira" and was one of Kurosawa's favorite actors.
My confusion arose in part from Ishiro Honda's close association with
Kurosawa. Honda was Kurosawa's assistant director for many years.
If you want to see Takashi Shimura in action, I suggest you see
"Seven Samurai". To me, that's the greatest action movie ever made.
| Quote: |
I didn't grasp all of what you said yet, but I printed it out for
future reference. At least I have the 250 GB secondary HD; the bad
part is that 230 GB is filled with .mp3's. Have to back it up to DVD
data discs, I guess.
Meanwhile I am going to put all of the Godzilla's (and all the others
that you mentioned) at the top of my NetFlix queue.
Btw, I like Eastwood's directing: his first (not self-directed - no
challenge there!) was a 1973 B summer flick that never went anywhere,
"Breezy" w/Wm. Holden & a score by Alan & Marilyn Bergman. It's always
been one of my favorites.
|
I don't think I've seen it but it's now on _my_ list.
I've always liked William Holden. One of my favorite movies is Sunset Blvd.
--
"Nowadays, atheism is itself *culpa levis*, as compared
with criticism of existing property relations."
"All history is nothing but a continuous transformation
of human nature."
You can access THE PEOPLE on-line by visiting
our web page at http://www.slp.org |
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Ken Maltby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
"Rachel and Garry" <rmpublic@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Ikq8f.50328$Ih5.34504@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
If that is so OP, don't use the "Direct to Disk" feature.
Capture to DVD Compliant MPEG 2 and run that through
VideoReDo before you feed the .mpg to your authoring
program.
Luck;
Ken |
|
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|
|
Ken Maltby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
"redflag" <redflag@coqui.net> wrote in message
news:436267C9.4AB67995@coqui.net...
| Quote: |
Ken Maltby wrote:
That has got to be the worst approach to transferring video from
VHS to DVD that I've ever heard of. It is now obvious that "RedFlag"
is a masochist as well as a communist.
Why all the snobbery? We're all amateurs here. I believe that the reason
most of us come here to discuss these issues is because we want to
solve a technical problem and at the same time learn something new. If
that's
masochism, I plead guilty as hell. But what you call "masochism" I call
investing a little time, effort, imagination and good faith. It's a
matter of perspective.
I'll leave the gratuitous and back-handed reference to my "communism"
unanswered except to say that I have no axes to grind with anyone here
or elsewhere.
The most practical and easiest approach is to buy a DVD Recorder.
Maybe the easiest, but not necessarily the most practical (I'm assuming
that your definition of "practical" includes the matter of money).
----------- |
The cost of DVD Recorders has fallen dramatically, you can
acquire one for <$100. There are also high quality refurbished
DVD recorders for <$150. The process you described takes
many hours (closer to a day) per tape/DVD. Most looking at
this issue have a large number of VHS tapes. Unless your time
and your computer's time has no value, your process is far more
costly.
You can setup a DVD Recorder and VHS player so that a
simple "off-line" procedure can be used to accomplish the time
consuming Real Time capture process. The tape and blank
disk are inserted, the tape positioned and the record & play
buttons pressed. Two hours or so later you have your DVD.
For many this is all they need. For others like myself, a
DVD RW disk is used so that when I have the time I can
bring the DVD RW to my PC for further processing.
A DVD every two hours or so, or one or two a day (with
your computer tied up the whole time) ; which is more
practical for someone with a goodly number of tapes?
I would say your process is both more costly and less
practical.
/Ken
------------------
| Quote: | Once you accomplish the task of tranferring all your old VHS onto disc,
using the DVD recorder, what next?
I suggest that the recorder will sit there, under our TVs, like so many of
our old VHS player/recorders, just waiting to become obsolete or, at best,
redundant.
_________ |
You are aware that any DVD Recorder is also a DVD
player? Often they are progressive scan and have
component outputs. Having more than one DVD player
may be redundant in your household, but I would suggest
that it is not so in most.
/Ken
------------
| Quote: | The urge to go out and buy the latest gizmo is a typically American and
consumerist one. I personally object to it because it's wasteful and,
in the long run, disappointing.
------------ |
Leaving aside your disdain for what is "typically American", it
is no more "wasteful" or "disappointing" than watching Godzilla
movies all day.
/Ken
--------------
| Quote: | One of the most frequent requests I've seen here is for help in resolving
a DVD issue either cheaply or gratis. Given the costs involved in this
hobby of ours, I think it's legitimate to want inexpensive or free
solutions.
In a world ruled by economic concerns, that's the most _practical_
approach
to solving these kinds of problems. Wouldn't you agree?
----------- |
Legitimate, certainly; but not always the most practical. I
am a very frugal man, and have demonstrated some ability
to find the least expensive means to an end. There are times
when you need to spend a little to save a lot.
/Ken
------------
| Quote: | Also, by transferring from one format to another as I suggested, there is
the potential of learning a little bit of how it all works while saving
a considerable ammount of money.
I think that the PC is the way to go for the task of managing and
reproducing
our home-made media. It is the device that synthesizes all of our current
communication and entertainment needs. You are probably aware that
eventually
all of our media experience at home will be managed by a CPU centrally
located
somewhere in the house. By then perhaps the video disc willbe as obsolete
as
as the vinyl record, having been replaced by credit card-sized media with
capture chips embedded within them, much like what our present photo
cameras
use nowadays.
----------- |
Like most who favor central planning, you see your
vision of the future as inevitable. I'm still waiting to
move into a "Monsanto House" like I saw in the late
50s at "TommorowLand".
I already have some of my "media experience"
"managed by a CPU centrally located somewhere in
the house". In fact some resides on a "TeraStation"
NAS and feeds my "LinkTheater" www.buffalotech.com .
The LinkTheater has a DVD player built-in, to
complement its network media playing functions.
Trying to use your vision of the future as a buttress
to your position on current matters, isn't very practical
either.
/Ken
-------------
| Quote: |
The issues with VHS recording center around correcting the effects of
tape playback, the stretching of the tape and other factors that result
in
variation of the nature of the analog signal off the VHS player. Most
DVD
Recorders include circuitry to correct for this, normally including a TBC
(Time Base Corrector) and some NR (noise reduction).
If the audio and video is in sync as it is captured, then the A/D chip
can provide a linkage between a field of video and the audio data for
that time period. This data relationship thereafter exists whether the
audio and video are muxed or separate. Programs like VideoReDo
can use that data relationship to correct where there are breaks in the
audio or video sequence of frames (Dropouts). Even if there were a
significant difference at capture, so that the A/D chip "tagged" the
wrong
audio to the video fields, the data relationship is such that a shift can
be
made to correct the sync. www.VideoReDo.com
If you use a DVD RW disk or a DVD RAM disk, in your DVD
Recorder, you can bring that to your PC for any needed correction
and to properly author a DVD-/+R.
The only DVDExpress that I've heard of is a DVD rental site.
Could you provide a better description of it?
Luck;
Ken
|
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|
|
Isis
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:39 pm Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
<Snipped it all, just because it was getting too big!>
Oh, Man!
Talk about being torn between two worlds!
Ken:
You would probably consider me a conservative at the very least. I am
a devout follower of the Ayn Rand philosophy (although she & I differ
on a couple of philosophical points here & there). Still, your
attempts at artistic criticism might better be left to those Liberals
(with the capital "L") who seem to have a much better handle on such
things than we do.
Your following remark was unconscionable:
"Leaving aside your disdain for what is "typically American", it is no
more "wasteful" or "disappointing" than watching Godzilla movies all
day."
What, exactly, *do* you watch all day?
(Don't try to say you are above simple entertainment, because if you
were, you wouldn't be into all of this DVD stuff to begin with.)
The Japanese film industry has produced some of the finest films known
to man.
They have: The Seven Samurai
We have: The Magnificent 7
They have: Roshomon
We have: Been left waiting for a decent copycat version.
They have: Sudoku
We have: The NY Times Crossword Puzzle
(The last pair has nothing to do with film, but it's another artistic
& technological example of Western deficiencies.) ;-)
RedFlag:
Of course, we will never agree on a lot of things, but I highly value
your opinions (particularly when it pertains to art, since that is the
common weakness of us techno-geek's). I suppose we should leave the
technical stuff to Ken, since it appears that he really knows what
he's talking about. (Although, one DVD player in the house is enough
for me!)
Isis
Disclaimer: [If anyone takes this post too seriously, it's not my
fault!] |
|
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|
|
redflag
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:01 pm Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
Ken Maltby wrote:
| Quote: |
"redflag" <redflag@coqui.net> wrote in message
news:436267C9.4AB67995@coqui.net...
Ken Maltby wrote:
That has got to be the worst approach to transferring video from
VHS to DVD that I've ever heard of. It is now obvious that "RedFlag"
is a masochist as well as a communist.
Why all the snobbery? We're all amateurs here. I believe that the reason
most of us come here to discuss these issues is because we want to
solve a technical problem and at the same time learn something new. If
that's
masochism, I plead guilty as hell. But what you call "masochism" I call
investing a little time, effort, imagination and good faith. It's a
matter of perspective.
I'll leave the gratuitous and back-handed reference to my "communism"
unanswered except to say that I have no axes to grind with anyone here
or elsewhere.
The most practical and easiest approach is to buy a DVD Recorder.
Maybe the easiest, but not necessarily the most practical (I'm assuming
that your definition of "practical" includes the matter of money).
-----------
The cost of DVD Recorders has fallen dramatically, you can
acquire one for <$100. There are also high quality refurbished
DVD recorders for <$150. The process you described takes
many hours (closer to a day) per tape/DVD. Most looking at
this issue have a large number of VHS tapes. Unless your time
and your computer's time has no value, your process is far more
costly.
|
Granted, my home computer is not the machine I use for my work.
Whatever I do on it I do on my spare time. I suppose that if I want
to transfer my old VHS to another format without incurring in the
expense of buying a recorder I'll just have to sacrifice my
leisure time to do it. But isn't that what hobbies are all about?
| Quote: | You can setup a DVD Recorder and VHS player so that a
simple "off-line" procedure can be used to accomplish the time
consuming Real Time capture process. The tape and blank
disk are inserted, the tape positioned and the record & play
buttons pressed. Two hours or so later you have your DVD.
For many this is all they need. For others like myself, a
DVD RW disk is used so that when I have the time I can
bring the DVD RW to my PC for further processing.
|
But what's the difference between that and the process I suggested
except that one uses the PC and the other a dedicated device?
It's approximately the same ammount of time. Once you set up and
start the capture in your PC, you can leave it alone until the capture is
done.
| Quote: | A DVD every two hours or so, or one or two a day (with
your computer tied up the whole time) ; which is more
practical for someone with a goodly number of tapes?
|
I suppose it depends on the person and how urgent his need to
transfer may be. In most cases it's probably not a top priority
so that a few hours each day may suffice. But it really doesn't matter
anyway because we're assuming here (at least I am) that all this
is being done for shits and giggles, that is, for our own amusement.
| Quote: | I would say your process is both more costly and less
practical.
/Ken
|
Okay, I have no problem with you saying that. You have a right to
your opinion (even if you haven't proved it, which, AFAIC, is not
necessary). Just the same, I still like the idea of using my PC to capture
video tape. And by experience I aknow that it is possible to do it with a
high degree of fidelity so that you wind up with a satisfactory product.
| Quote: | ------------------
Once you accomplish the task of tranferring all your old VHS onto disc,
using the DVD recorder, what next?
I suggest that the recorder will sit there, under our TVs, like so many of
our old VHS player/recorders, just waiting to become obsolete or, at best,
redundant.
_________
You are aware that any DVD Recorder is also a DVD
player? Often they are progressive scan and have
component outputs. Having more than one DVD player
may be redundant in your household, but I would suggest
that it is not so in most.
|
Alright, I'll stop presuming to speak for "most" households if you
promise to do the same. Just the same, my point still stands: The
DVD recorder is akin to the VHS recorder, a machine whose functionality
can now be obtained with a PC.
| Quote: | The urge to go out and buy the latest gizmo is a typically American and
consumerist one. I personally object to it because it's wasteful and,
in the long run, disappointing.
------------
Leaving aside your disdain for what is "typically American", it
is no more "wasteful" or "disappointing" than watching Godzilla
movies all day.
|
It depends on what you like doesn't it? If you don't like Godzilla movies
you don't have to watch them; if what you like is having a machine that
tranfers VHS to DVD because your PC time is too valuable to use in that
kind of project, well then, you're entitled to do as you please.
Just the same, I don't see why it's necessarily "masochistic" to do
things differently from you.
| Quote: | One of the most frequent requests I've seen here is for help in resolving
a DVD issue either cheaply or gratis. Given the costs involved in this
hobby of ours, I think it's legitimate to want inexpensive or free
solutions.
In a world ruled by economic concerns, that's the most _practical_
approach
to solving these kinds of problems. Wouldn't you agree?
-----------
Legitimate, certainly; but not always the most practical. I
am a very frugal man, and have demonstrated some ability
to find the least expensive means to an end. There are times
when you need to spend a little to save a lot.
/Ken
|
True. But, again, it depends on the individual and his particular needs.
| Quote: | Also, by transferring from one format to another as I suggested, there is
the potential of learning a little bit of how it all works while saving
a considerable ammount of money.
I think that the PC is the way to go for the task of managing and
reproducing
our home-made media. It is the device that synthesizes all of our current
communication and entertainment needs. You are probably aware that
eventually
all of our media experience at home will be managed by a CPU centrally
located
somewhere in the house. By then perhaps the video disc willbe as obsolete
as
as the vinyl record, having been replaced by credit card-sized media with
capture chips embedded within them, much like what our present photo
cameras
use nowadays.
-----------
Like most who favor central planning, you see your
vision of the future as inevitable. I'm still waiting to
move into a "Monsanto House" like I saw in the late
50s at "TommorowLand".
|
Sorry if I made it sound "inevitable". I happen to think that nothing
is inevitable. Also, what's so bad about central planning?
| Quote: | I already have some of my "media experience"
"managed by a CPU centrally located somewhere in
the house". In fact some resides on a "TeraStation"
NAS and feeds my "LinkTheater" www.buffalotech.com .
The LinkTheater has a DVD player built-in, to
complement its network media playing functions.
|
Good for you! Congratulations!
| Quote: | Trying to use your vision of the future as a buttress
to your position on current matters, isn't very practical
either.
|
I haven't even begun talking about my "vision of the future"! But then,
I rarely do that; I'm no futurist. Perhaps what you mean to suggest is
that I am relying on a particular _world outlook_ to "buttress" my opinion.
If that's what you're suggesting, I plead guilty. But so should everyone
else, including you. Our _world outlook_, that is, the way in which we
perceive the 'here and now', is the inevitable result of how we perceive
reality as a whole. No one who can think critically and express an opinion
about what he sees is exempt from that.
To be honest, I hadn't even thought about anything sociological or even
remotely political when I first suggested the VHS to DVD transfer solution,
at least not consciously. But it seems to me that it was you who insinuated
politics into this discussion with a gratuitous remark linking masochism
with "communism".
I'm willing to let it pass because I'm no fanatic. But if you wish to discuss
the merits or demerits of my or anyone else's political views you ought to
try to be more upfront about it. You'll find that I'm more than willing and
able to hold my ground on such subjects. But, and this is a big "but", as
Pee-Wee Herman used to say, this may not be the appropriate forum for it
as some of our esteemed co-participants may justifiably object to the misuse
of the bandwidth dedicated to a.v.d.s. discussion.
--
"Nowadays, atheism is itself *culpa levis*, as compared
with criticism of existing property relations."
"All history is nothing but a continuous transformation
of human nature."
You can access THE PEOPLE on-line by visiting
our web page at http://www.slp.org |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redflag
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject:
Re: DVDXPRESS problems.all my movies look like bad godzilla |
|
|
At the risk of sounding like I'm patronizing you, I'll say this:
Don't sell yourself short, Isis; you seem to have a fairly good handle
yourself on the artistic.
But I disagree with your assertion that Western artistic sensibilities are
less refined or deficient compared to Japan's.
The U.S., just to name one Western country, has produced some of the greatest
movies in history. Some of them have influenced Japanese cinema from the start.
Take "Citizen Kane", for example. You can seen Welles' influence on Kurosawa
and Kobayashi movies. According to some critics, John Ford's Westerns (big sky
epics) were instrumental in shaping Kurosawa's cinematic vision. Ozu and Kaneto
Shindo seemed to have been infuenced at varying times by the European avant-
guard, from the surrealists to the neo-realists, like Renoir, Lang, Clouzot,
Renais and Passolini, just to name a few.
It's all really a dialectical relationship; one influences the other back and
forth until it's almost impossible to know who was first unless you take
the time to define the styles, identify the techniques and trace the history.
Be that as it may, one thing you, Ken Mathby and myself can agree on is this:
MOVIES ARE GREAT!
Isis wrote:
| Quote: |
Snipped it all, just because it was getting too big!
Oh, Man!
Talk about being torn between two worlds!
Ken:
You would probably consider me a conservative at the very least. I am
a devout follower of the Ayn Rand philosophy (although she & I differ
on a couple of philosophical points here & there). Still, your
attempts at artistic criticism might better be left to those Liberals
(with the capital "L") who seem to have a much better handle on such
things than we do.
Your following remark was unconscionable:
"Leaving aside your disdain for what is "typically American", it is no
more "wasteful" or "disappointing" than watching Godzilla movies all
day."
What, exactly, *do* you watch all day?
(Don't try to say you are above simple entertainment, because if you
were, you wouldn't be into all of this DVD stuff to begin with.)
The Japanese film industry has produced some of the finest films known
to man.
They have: The Seven Samurai
We have: The Magnificent 7
They have: Roshomon
We have: Been left waiting for a decent copycat version.
They have: Sudoku
We have: The NY Times Crossword Puzzle
(The last pair has nothing to do with film, but it's another artistic
& technological example of Western deficiencies.) ;-)
RedFlag:
Of course, we will never agree on a lot of things, but I highly value
your opinions (particularly when it pertains to art, since that is the
common weakness of us techno-geek's). I suppose we should leave the
technical stuff to Ken, since it appears that he really knows what
he's talking about. (Although, one DVD player in the house is enough
for me!)
Isis
Disclaimer: [If anyone takes this post too seriously, it's not my
fault!]
|
--
"Nowadays, atheism is itself *culpa levis*, as compared
with criticism of existing property relations."
"All history is nothing but a continuous transformation
of human nature."
You can access THE PEOPLE on-line by visiting
our web page at http://www.slp.org |
|
| Back to top |
|
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