| Author |
Message |
Humbug
Guest
|
 Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:54 pm Post subject:
Resolution/aspect ratio problems with DTT and TDA |
|
|
I've had a Topfield TF5800 for just over a month now, and been very
pleased at the way it's simplified making DVDs of programmes which I
want to keep.
The two major benefits are that it records the transport stream from
digital terrestrial transmission with no processing, and allows the
resultant files to be downloaded to a PC for editing via a USB port.
Later versions of VideoReDo (1.7.0.302 at least) can directly edit TS
files and save the result as programme stream MPEG2, which I can then
author nicely using TMPGEnc DVD Author.
Two issues have arisen, though; one is just a bit of a niggle, the
other is a real problem.
TDA throws up an error message for Channel 4 and Five programmes,
saying that the video bit rate is 10Mb/s and 15Mb/s respectively. I
guess that this is just an incorrect flag, as VideoReDo shows the
actual bit rate after editing to be in the range 2-3Mb/s.
TDA allows me to ignore these "errors", although I have to tell it to
ignore them several time during the process. I wonder if there's a
simple way to reset the flag without having to remake the MPEG files
....
The real problem occurs with programmes recorded from ITV2 and 3, E4
and now More 4. TDA just doesn't want to know about these - it throws
up three "fatal" errors:
[1] The video resolution 544x576 cannot be used for a standard DVD
[2] You cannot use 16:9 aspect ratio for resolution 544x576
[3] The video frame rate 25 fps cannot be used with the resolution
544x576
It also reports the incorrect high VBRs, but that's trivial.
Obviously, the broadcasters are saving bandwidth by reducing the
number of samples per line by 25% - the DTT receiver can cope with
this, but is it definitely beyond the ability of a DVD to handle this
resolution?
At the moment, the only soultion I have used successfully is to play
back the recorded programmes in real time, and re-capture them (from
Analog) using a WinTV-PVR350 card in the PC. This defeats the purpose
of recording transport streams :-(
Is there a software solution to this, or am I stuck with it?
--
Humbug
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P Pron
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:43 pm Post subject:
Re: Resolution/aspect ratio problems with DTT and TDA |
|
|
Humbug wrote:
|| I've had a Topfield TF5800 for just over a month now, and been very
|| pleased at the way it's simplified making DVDs of programmes which I
|| want to keep.
|| The two major benefits are that it records the transport stream from
|| digital terrestrial transmission with no processing, and allows the
|| resultant files to be downloaded to a PC for editing via a USB port.
||
|| Later versions of VideoReDo (1.7.0.302 at least) can directly edit TS
|| files and save the result as programme stream MPEG2, which I can then
|| author nicely using TMPGEnc DVD Author.
||
|| Two issues have arisen, though; one is just a bit of a niggle, the
|| other is a real problem.
||
|| TDA throws up an error message for Channel 4 and Five programmes,
|| saying that the video bit rate is 10Mb/s and 15Mb/s respectively. I
|| guess that this is just an incorrect flag, as VideoReDo shows the
|| actual bit rate after editing to be in the range 2-3Mb/s.
|| TDA allows me to ignore these "errors", although I have to tell it to
|| ignore them several time during the process. I wonder if there's a
|| simple way to reset the flag without having to remake the MPEG files
|| ...
||
|| The real problem occurs with programmes recorded from ITV2 and 3, E4
|| and now More 4. TDA just doesn't want to know about these - it throws
|| up three "fatal" errors:
|| [1] The video resolution 544x576 cannot be used for a standard DVD
|| [2] You cannot use 16:9 aspect ratio for resolution 544x576
|| [3] The video frame rate 25 fps cannot be used with the resolution
|| 544x576
|| It also reports the incorrect high VBRs, but that's trivial.
||
|| Obviously, the broadcasters are saving bandwidth by reducing the
|| number of samples per line by 25% - the DTT receiver can cope with
|| this, but is it definitely beyond the ability of a DVD to handle this
|| resolution?
||
|| At the moment, the only soultion I have used successfully is to play
|| back the recorded programmes in real time, and re-capture them (from
|| Analog) using a WinTV-PVR350 card in the PC. This defeats the purpose
|| of recording transport streams :-(
||
|| Is there a software solution to this, or am I stuck with it?
I'm sure someone will have an alternative answer, but have you tried using
Nero instead of TDA for authoring these problematic recordings?
I use TDA all the time - it's an excellent program. But the reason for its
speed is that is doesn't re-encode the recording as part of the process, and
it seems to me that this might be why it is fussy as to what you try to put
in. Nero *does* re-encode everything, and I think this might be the
solution - or _a_ solution, at least.
paul |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Humbug
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject:
Re: Resolution/aspect ratio problems with DTT and TDA |
|
|
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said "P Pron"
<paulatspambegone.pron@tiscali.co.uk>, "I always pay it extra."
| Quote: | I'm sure someone will have an alternative answer, but have you tried using
Nero instead of TDA for authoring these problematic recordings?
|
I haven't used Nero for authoring at all before now.
| Quote: | I use TDA all the time - it's an excellent program. But the reason for its
speed is that is doesn't re-encode the recording as part of the process, and
it seems to me that this might be why it is fussy as to what you try to put
in. Nero *does* re-encode everything, and I think this might be the
solution - or _a_ solution, at least.
|
Well, I tried it, and the resultant video was 720x576 ... but it took
three times as long as real time to do it :-(
And I certainly much prefer the way menus are constructed using TDA,
so I shan't be persevering with Nero. Thanks for the suggestion,
though.
--
Humbug |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P Pron
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject:
Re: Resolution/aspect ratio problems with DTT and TDA |
|
|
Humbug wrote:
|| "When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said "P Pron"
|| <paulatspambegone.pron@tiscali.co.uk>, "I always pay it extra."
||
||| I'm sure someone will have an alternative answer, but have you
||| tried using Nero instead of TDA for authoring these problematic
||| recordings?
||
|| I haven't used Nero for authoring at all before now.
||
||| I use TDA all the time - it's an excellent program. But the reason
||| for its speed is that is doesn't re-encode the recording as part of
||| the process, and it seems to me that this might be why it is fussy
||| as to what you try to put in. Nero *does* re-encode everything,
||| and I think this might be the solution - or _a_ solution, at least.
||
|| Well, I tried it, and the resultant video was 720x576 ... but it took
|| three times as long as real time to do it :-(
||
|| And I certainly much prefer the way menus are constructed using TDA,
|| so I shan't be persevering with Nero. Thanks for the suggestion,
|| though.
I doubt that you'll reduce that time by much, using an alternative program,
but you could consider authoring in Nero without a menu, saving to HD, then
redoing it in TDA with menu...
Or you could try TMPGenc's encoder - I've not used it myself, but it's a
free download from http://www.tmpgenc.net/e_main.html
paul |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ken Maltby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:17 pm Post subject:
Re: Resolution/aspect ratio problems with DTT and TDA |
|
|
"Humbug" <humbug@tofee.net> wrote in message
news:059hl1hlmq56vp2c7hkjoees8gebds8rul@4ax.com...
| Quote: | I've had a Topfield TF5800 for just over a month now, and been very
pleased at the way it's simplified making DVDs of programmes which I
want to keep.
The two major benefits are that it records the transport stream from
digital terrestrial transmission with no processing, and allows the
resultant files to be downloaded to a PC for editing via a USB port.
Later versions of VideoReDo (1.7.0.302 at least) can directly edit TS
files and save the result as programme stream MPEG2, which I can then
author nicely using TMPGEnc DVD Author.
Two issues have arisen, though; one is just a bit of a niggle, the
other is a real problem.
TDA throws up an error message for Channel 4 and Five programmes,
saying that the video bit rate is 10Mb/s and 15Mb/s respectively. I
guess that this is just an incorrect flag, as VideoReDo shows the
actual bit rate after editing to be in the range 2-3Mb/s.
TDA allows me to ignore these "errors", although I have to tell it to
ignore them several time during the process. I wonder if there's a
simple way to reset the flag without having to remake the MPEG files
...
The real problem occurs with programmes recorded from ITV2 and 3, E4
and now More 4. TDA just doesn't want to know about these - it throws
up three "fatal" errors:
[1] The video resolution 544x576 cannot be used for a standard DVD
[2] You cannot use 16:9 aspect ratio for resolution 544x576
[3] The video frame rate 25 fps cannot be used with the resolution
544x576
It also reports the incorrect high VBRs, but that's trivial.
Obviously, the broadcasters are saving bandwidth by reducing the
number of samples per line by 25% - the DTT receiver can cope with
this, but is it definitely beyond the ability of a DVD to handle this
resolution?
At the moment, the only soultion I have used successfully is to play
back the recorded programmes in real time, and re-capture them (from
Analog) using a WinTV-PVR350 card in the PC. This defeats the purpose
of recording transport streams :-(
Is there a software solution to this, or am I stuck with it?
--
Humbug
|
TDA sticks pretty close to what you can expect a DVD player
to be able to play, for the most part that's the DVD standard.
The black text warnings exceed the DVD standard but can
sometimes work with some or most players. The red fatal errors
are for those parameters that would not work in normal DVD
players or that TDA just can't handle. (That's almost always the
same thing.)
If the Topfield can't be adjusted to provide an output format
that you can work with, you might try the transcoding capabilities
of "VLC" from "VideoLan". Otherwise you would be stuck with
some encoding/transcoding process. Simply scaling the image to
a useful size should be accomplished in much less than real-time.
The other TDA errors will not be there, once the image size is one
of those for PAL DVDs.
What encoders do you have on hand?
Luck;
Ken |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Humbug
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:29 am Post subject:
Re: Resolution/aspect ratio problems with DTT and TDA |
|
|
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said "Ken Maltby"
<kmaltby@sbcglobal.net>, "I always pay it extra."
| Quote: | If the Topfield can't be adjusted to provide an output format
that you can work with, you might try the transcoding capabilities
of "VLC" from "VideoLan". Otherwise you would be stuck with
some encoding/transcoding process. Simply scaling the image to
a useful size should be accomplished in much less than real-time.
The other TDA errors will not be there, once the image size is one
of those for PAL DVDs.
What encoders do you have on hand?
|
The Topfield can't be adjusted at all in the digital domain. It simply
records the transport stream and plays it back with no processing,
which I regard as a Good Thing.
It possible to adjust the *analog* coding on playback - it can do
composite, RGB YUV and S-video at 16:9 and 4:3 with various options.
A colleague at work gave me a copy of VLC a few weeks ago when I first
saw the apparent bitrate problem. I found that it didn't help ... but
at least it did show me that the reported bitrate of the files I had
was incorrect.
I think that it's an incorrect flag in the file headers ... domestic
DTT cannot possibly support bitrates of 10 and 15Mb/s in any case!
I just told TDA to ignore the "errors", and checking the resultant
files shows that the bitrate is actually between 2 and 3 Mb/s
Following P Pron's suggestion earlier today, I gave TMPGEnc a go ...
it took about five times real time to convert my test file, and
increased the file size by more than 200% :-(
The results of my investigations so far suggest that there *are* a
number of applications available which can convert 544x576 transport
streams to 720x576 programme streams, but the processing takes
considerably longer than real time, and the files get larger.
It's only an issue for ITV2/3, E4 and More 4. BBC channels, ITV1,
Channel 4 and Five all use 720x576.
<mode = "rant">
The trouble with standards (as I've been saying for nearly 30 years
working in Broadcast Television) is that there are just too many of
them. AFAICS these newer channels are taking advantage of the fact
that the average viewer at home is far more aware of choice of content
than technical quality, and will accept the most appalling crap, and
believe that it is good.
These newer broadcasters take advantage of the lower cost of lower
bandwidth by reducing the number of samples per line. Nobody at home
will notice *unless* they want to make a DVD from the transport stream
- which is not in the broadcaster's interest.
</mode>
Thank you for the prompt reply, Ken.
--
Humbug |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ken Maltby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:39 am Post subject:
Re: Resolution/aspect ratio problems with DTT and TDA |
|
|
"Humbug" <humbug@tofee.net> wrote in message
news:6enil15pv8npt1jhiri7f5ophia02rbqe3@4ax.com...
| Quote: | "When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said "Ken Maltby"
kmaltby@sbcglobal.net>, "I always pay it extra."
If the Topfield can't be adjusted to provide an output format
that you can work with, you might try the transcoding capabilities
of "VLC" from "VideoLan". Otherwise you would be stuck with
some encoding/transcoding process. Simply scaling the image to
a useful size should be accomplished in much less than real-time.
The other TDA errors will not be there, once the image size is one
of those for PAL DVDs.
What encoders do you have on hand?
The Topfield can't be adjusted at all in the digital domain. It simply
records the transport stream and plays it back with no processing,
which I regard as a Good Thing.
It possible to adjust the *analog* coding on playback - it can do
composite, RGB YUV and S-video at 16:9 and 4:3 with various options.
A colleague at work gave me a copy of VLC a few weeks ago when I first
saw the apparent bitrate problem. I found that it didn't help ... but
at least it did show me that the reported bitrate of the files I had
was incorrect.
I think that it's an incorrect flag in the file headers ... domestic
DTT cannot possibly support bitrates of 10 and 15Mb/s in any case!
I just told TDA to ignore the "errors", and checking the resultant
files shows that the bitrate is actually between 2 and 3 Mb/s
Following P Pron's suggestion earlier today, I gave TMPGEnc a go ...
it took about five times real time to convert my test file, and
increased the file size by more than 200% :-(
The results of my investigations so far suggest that there *are* a
number of applications available which can convert 544x576 transport
streams to 720x576 programme streams, but the processing takes
considerably longer than real time, and the files get larger.
It's only an issue for ITV2/3, E4 and More 4. BBC channels, ITV1,
Channel 4 and Five all use 720x576.
mode = "rant"
The trouble with standards (as I've been saying for nearly 30 years
working in Broadcast Television) is that there are just too many of
them. AFAICS these newer channels are taking advantage of the fact
that the average viewer at home is far more aware of choice of content
than technical quality, and will accept the most appalling crap, and
believe that it is good.
These newer broadcasters take advantage of the lower cost of lower
bandwidth by reducing the number of samples per line. Nobody at home
will notice *unless* they want to make a DVD from the transport stream
- which is not in the broadcaster's interest.
/mode
Thank you for the prompt reply, Ken.
--
Humbug
|
Well, you could try Half D1 (352x576) at the bitrate you
have, it may be much better than you would think. I use
NTSC half D1 which is even smaller and it looks quite good.
You might not notice much difference unless you were to
compare the TS and the Half D1 side by side.
Luck;
Ken |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in