| Author |
Message |
James Lehman
Guest
|
 Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Speaker Valueation |
|
|
Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands, tens of
thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense at all to the
prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth... well that and I'd like to start a
long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do with my
original question...
http://www.akrobiz.com/spekaers/
James. :o)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
James Lehman
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
Well... this website is just an example. I have other ideas in the works.
Those sound like fair questions. I will be posting complete description of
at least two completely different designs pretty soon. When I say different,
I mean different! I think you will see some concepts made real in these
speakers that you haven't seen in other designs.
The first design is a dual 8 inch isobaric woofer (4 woofers in dual pairs)
with a compression driver & horn. It will be bi-amped. I plan to model the
crossover in the digital domain first and use a multi channel sound card to
create the 4 discrete outputs. Once I tweak in the right crossover, by the
numbers, I'll make one with op-amps ~ most likely 24 db / oct. at about 800
Hz.
The woofer section will be the same woofers as in this design, except that
they will be mounted back to back for symmetrical cone motion.
http://akrobiz.com/james/estie1.html
The compression driver & horn are made by Selenium and are said to have an
anechoic response of within 6 dB from 800Hz to 20KHz and extremely low 2nd
and 3rd harmonic distortion.
I plan to make the crossover myself and build AMP3 from www.41Hz.com to
power the horns. So it will be a bi-amped system that includes the active
crossover and the hi-end power amp. All you need is the amp to drive the
woofers and a split between the pre out and main in.
The other design is a 6 foot tall line source array of full range speakers
that are about 3.5" wide by just less than 2" high. There will be 36 drivers
in each line and it will easily cover from about 80Hz to 20KHz with a very
gradual roll off in the low end. It will be a true monopole with a 36" wide
baffle; quite suitable to push right up against the wall of the listening
room. I also have plans for a sub woofer to go with this design that is also
based on the same isobaric woofer combination as above.
"Kalman Rubinson" <kr4@nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:hqlgl1l4dse7ov8tq8k12a8nud5obu5sbq@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:38:12 GMT, "James Lehman"
james[remove]@akrobiz.com> wrote:
Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands, tens
of
thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense at all to
the
prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth... well that and I'd like to start
a
long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do with my
original question...
http://www.akrobiz.com/spekaers/
First, your URL is mispelled: http://www.akrobiz.com/speakers/ will
work better.
Second, what does it cost you to build them?
Third, to what have you directly compared them?
Kal |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
James Lehman
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
| Quote: | Ah, well. I've only plotted homemade speakers, but from the general
comments
I've read recently, it seems like you can take the parts cost of your
speakers, charge $0 for labour, and almost certainly buy something better
for the same price retail. Ive seen many people encouraging others to
build
their own speakers, but always as a hobby, never to actually make a better
speaker than they could buy for the same price.
Colin
|
What if those "home made speakers" were made by someone who knows how to
write code to make a sound card measure freq. vs. voltage to get all of the
reactive information from speakers (TS parameters) and crossover sections?
What if that same person knew how to apply all of that information to make
some really innovative and creative designs that really sounded outstanding?
Wouldn't that have some value to some other person who wanted a set of
speakers that were truly hand made, instead of some mass produced factory
stuff?
James. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joe Kesselman
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
James Lehman wrote:
| Quote: | The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth... well that and I'd like to start a
long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do with my
original question...
|
"Mu!"
You're much more likely to achieve the latter, since answering the
question starts with having to put your product through lab tests --
with multiple samples, since there may be build or component
inconsistancies -- and then becomes a matter of both establishing how
much speakers with similar specs go for and how much people like the
idea of supporting an individual craftsman. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ben Bradley
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:52:41 -0400, Kalman Rubinson <kr4@nyu.edu>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:38:12 GMT, "James Lehman"
james[remove]@akrobiz.com> wrote:
Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands, tens of
thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense at all to the
prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
|
I have the impression that once things get into the four-digit and
up range, it's more the latter than the former. ISTR Arny (or someone
else?) writing that he saw some high-end speakers with fairly mediocre
components.
| Quote: |
The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth...
|
I've stumbled across your site before, your speakers sure look
nice...
About the only way I can think of to determine their "worth" is to
put a price on them and try to sell them in some high-end store, and
see how they do compared to others.
| Quote: | well that and I'd like to start a
long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do with my
original question...
http://www.akrobiz.com/spekaers/
First, your URL is mispelled: http://www.akrobiz.com/speakers/ will
work better.
Second, what does it cost you to build them?
Third, to what have you directly compared them?
|
Speaking of directly comaring, I recently (also) stumbled acrosss
this page:
http://www.kaiaudio.com/diy200x.html
(but that page is outside its frame: go to http://www.kaiaudio.com and
click "DIY 200X" at the bottom to see it as the webmaster intended)
I think this sort of "competition" among speaker DIY'ers is a
really neat idea. If there were something like this around Atlanta
(who knows, there might be and I not know about it) I might be more
active in speakerbuilding and enter a couple of things. I've read a
lot of books and magazines on the topic, but I'm afraid I've built too
few systems to say I know much about speakerbuilding.
>Kal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Colin B.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
James Lehman <james[remove]@akrobiz.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands, tens of
thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense at all to the
prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
|
Up to a point, you get what you pay for with higher prices, assuming a
moderately honest and intelligent designer. Good $500 speakers sound
significantly better than good $100 speakers, and likewise for $1000 and
$2000 speakers. I remember hearing some $15k speakers about 15 years ago
that left me gasping. If I'd had the money to buy them, I'd have taken the
pair on the spot. (Thiel 5 I think, for anyone who cares).
People often talk about the law of diminishing returns, but not many people
understand what it implies. You can probably get 95% as good of sound for
say $1500 as you can for $10000. Clearly the $1500 speakers are a better
deal, and people might ask, 'why spend $10k on 5%?' Assuming again that we
are dealing with honest and noble and technically competent companies, the
trick is that once you get to a certain point, it may well take five times
as much effort and money to achieve that last few percent in quality. A grand
will buy you a pretty damned good set of speakers, if you shop carefully.
How much does it actually take to make a worthwhile improvement on the sound
from them? Sooner or later, if you have the means (which I certainly don't!),
it's not about how expensive they are, or how good they sound for the dollar
--it's about how good they sound, period. If you have an income of $40MM,
then if you want REALLY GOOD sound, are you going to worry much about the
fact that the $3000 speakers are a better deal than the $20,000 ones that
sound better?
Of course, there's also a huge opportunity for charlatans and crooks to make
cheap speakers that sound decent, put them in a gorgeous case, and sell
them for obscene markups to people who _want_ to buy speakers because they're
expensive.
| Quote: | The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth... well that and I'd like to start a
long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do with my
original question...
|
Ah, well. I've only plotted homemade speakers, but from the general comments
I've read recently, it seems like you can take the parts cost of your
speakers, charge $0 for labour, and almost certainly buy something better
for the same price retail. Ive seen many people encouraging others to build
their own speakers, but always as a hobby, never to actually make a better
speaker than they could buy for the same price.
Colin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kalman Rubinson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:38:12 GMT, "James Lehman"
<james[remove]@akrobiz.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands, tens of
thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense at all to the
prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth... well that and I'd like to start a
long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do with my
original question...
http://www.akrobiz.com/spekaers/
|
First, your URL is mispelled: http://www.akrobiz.com/speakers/ will
work better.
Second, what does it cost you to build them?
Third, to what have you directly compared them?
Kal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andy
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
| Quote: | How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands, tens of
thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense at all to the
prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
|
They are normally priced to maximise profits. Some companies go for low
manufacture cost, high marketing cost and very small volumes at the
ultra high price end. Others aim for a different balance.
Successfully putting speakers in boxes is a very easy trade to enter
requiring only a modest level of knowledge and investment. To become
successful is fairly difficult because the margins are very slim at the
low end, the brands strong and the products technically good in the
middle price bracket, effectively leaving only the upper price bracket
for newcomers.
| Quote: | The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth...
|
To the builder usually a lot since speaker building is a very rewarding
hobby if one is that way inclined. To other people I would expect it to
be a struggle to get back the cost of the materials (at hobby prices). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andy
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
I am not sure you are emphasizing the right things here. Put yourself
in the place of the customer and ask why they would opt for your
homemade speaker instead of a well designed, well supported product
from a known manufacturer that they have heard and liked in the local
audio shop. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Barry Mann
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:14 pm Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
In <owY5f.145240$lI5.142130@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>, on 10/21/05
at 02:38 AM, "James Lehman" <james[remove]@akrobiz.com> said:
| Quote: | Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands,
tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense
at all to the prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can
get?
The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of
my own hand made speakers is really worth... well that and I'd like to
start a long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do
with my original question...
|
At the bare minimum you need to cover your costs to manufacture each
pair. Don't forget to pay yourself a reasonable wage for developing the
product. In addition, you'll have marketing costs. You could
inexpensively leave that to your website, but you'll get what you pay
for. If you want to try using dealers, you'll need to build a demo pair
or two and drag them around to dealers -- gas costs are up. Eventually,
one of your speakers will fail and you'll need to repair it for free.
Who pays shipping? Eventually, someone will sue you for something. Will
you have enough reserve funds to defend yourself?
You get the picture. Cover your basic costs, add enough to make this a
viable business and assign a price. Then compare the speakers with
similarly priced units and get customer or potential customer reaction
to your speakers. If you price your speakers too low, you may get more
orders than you can reasonably handle without expanding your production
line. If you price them too high, you won't get enough orders.
If you decide to use manufacters' rep firms and dealers, don't forget
that they need to make a living too. You can easily undercut their
prices with direct sales, but dealers will quickly drop any company
resorting to that practice.
-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
----------------------------------------------------------- |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregS
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
In article <owY5f.145240$lI5.142130@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>, "James Lehman" <james[remove]@akrobiz.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands, tens of
thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense at all to the
prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth... well that and I'd like to start a
long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do with my
original question...
http://www.akrobiz.com/spekaers/
James. :o)
|
I don't understand 4 having the same volume requirment as one driver.
greg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Arny Krueger
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
"James Lehman" <james[remove]@akrobiz.com> wrote in message
news:owY5f.145240$lI5.142130@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com
| Quote: | Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some
thousands, tens of thousands and even hundreds of
thousands?
|
Speakers are imperfectable at this time, so long expensive
excursions into diminishing returns are possible and even
likely.
| Quote: | Is there any sense at all to the prices or is
it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
|
Speakers are like everything else, if you're lucky and
careful, you might get what you pay for.
| Quote: | The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a
nice pair of my own hand made speakers is really worth...
well that and I'd like to start a long thread of nonsense
in this group that has nothing to do with my original
question...
http://www.akrobiz.com/speakers/
|
Sorry, I'm not a fan of metal-cone drivers and I'm not a fan
of Isobaric designs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregS
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
In article <djaom6$2bl$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, szekeres@pitt.edu (GregS) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <owY5f.145240$lI5.142130@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>, "James Lehman"
james[remove]@akrobiz.com> wrote:
Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands, tens of
thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense at all to the
prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth... well that and I'd like to start a
long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do with my
original question...
http://www.akrobiz.com/spekaers/
James. :o)
I don't understand 4 having the same volume requirment as one driver.
greg
' |
isobaric
Didn't see that in the same sentence, sorry.
greg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ethan Winer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
James,
| Quote: | Is there any sense at all to the prices
|
Probably not. At least in my estimation there's rarely much relation to cost
versus quality.
| Quote: | or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
|
Yes, that's how I see it.
| Quote: | I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my own hand made speakers is
really worth. |
What they would be worth TO ME depends entirely on how good they are. I'm
not the type to be impressed by a hand polished high-gloss finish. Nor do I
care how many twists you put in the wire between the crossover and driver.
All I care about is frequency response, distortion, dispersion, power
handling ability, etc.
Here's a way to distinguish your line: Be the first manufacturer to actually
publish THD and IM distortion specs. :->)
--Ethan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kalman Rubinson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Speaker Valueation |
|
|
Well, build and test them first. You seem to have lots of ideas but
do not let philosophical/theoretical biases limit you. For example,
24dB/octave is fine but you may find, on measurements and tweaking,
that it is sub-optimal for the application.
In other words, either design to a price point (typical commercial
applications) or build what your heart suggests and, if it's
commercially viable, you can move into business. Too early to say.
Kal (who does not particularly care for the appearance of your
designs)
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 04:12:12 GMT, "James Lehman"
<james[remove]@akrobiz.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Well... this website is just an example. I have other ideas in the works.
Those sound like fair questions. I will be posting complete description of
at least two completely different designs pretty soon. When I say different,
I mean different! I think you will see some concepts made real in these
speakers that you haven't seen in other designs.
The first design is a dual 8 inch isobaric woofer (4 woofers in dual pairs)
with a compression driver & horn. It will be bi-amped. I plan to model the
crossover in the digital domain first and use a multi channel sound card to
create the 4 discrete outputs. Once I tweak in the right crossover, by the
numbers, I'll make one with op-amps ~ most likely 24 db / oct. at about 800
Hz.
The woofer section will be the same woofers as in this design, except that
they will be mounted back to back for symmetrical cone motion.
http://akrobiz.com/james/estie1.html
The compression driver & horn are made by Selenium and are said to have an
anechoic response of within 6 dB from 800Hz to 20KHz and extremely low 2nd
and 3rd harmonic distortion.
I plan to make the crossover myself and build AMP3 from www.41Hz.com to
power the horns. So it will be a bi-amped system that includes the active
crossover and the hi-end power amp. All you need is the amp to drive the
woofers and a split between the pre out and main in.
The other design is a 6 foot tall line source array of full range speakers
that are about 3.5" wide by just less than 2" high. There will be 36 drivers
in each line and it will easily cover from about 80Hz to 20KHz with a very
gradual roll off in the low end. It will be a true monopole with a 36" wide
baffle; quite suitable to push right up against the wall of the listening
room. I also have plans for a sub woofer to go with this design that is also
based on the same isobaric woofer combination as above.
"Kalman Rubinson" <kr4@nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:hqlgl1l4dse7ov8tq8k12a8nud5obu5sbq@4ax.com...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:38:12 GMT, "James Lehman"
james[remove]@akrobiz.com> wrote:
Hello.
How is it that some speaker systems cost hundreds, some thousands, tens
of
thousands and even hundreds of thousands? Is there any sense at all to
the
prices or is it purely a matter of whatever they can get?
The reason I ask is because I'd like to figure out what a nice pair of my
own hand made speakers is really worth... well that and I'd like to start
a
long thread of nonsense in this group that has nothing to do with my
original question...
http://www.akrobiz.com/spekaers/
First, your URL is mispelled: http://www.akrobiz.com/speakers/ will
work better.
Second, what does it cost you to build them?
Third, to what have you directly compared them?
Kal
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in