| Author |
Message |
hoarse with no name
Guest
|
 Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:43 am Post subject:
I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
Posters to this group have made disparaging comments regarding speaker
cables costing several thousand dollars. I thought these were mildly
amusing metaphors for the excesses of the audio connections industry,
not comments regarding actual products. Today while surfing the web I
came across the Nordost line of speaker cables costing $10K a pair.
Standard phrases such as 'it boggles the mind' are useless here.
It seems to me that the one can always connect one speaker with the
fancy wire and the other with plain wire and then set the amp to mono
and then settle the whole thing for yourself. Do the buyers of $10K
speaker wire ever try this?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Colin B.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:38 pm Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
hoarse with no name <no@spam.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Posters to this group have made disparaging comments regarding speaker
cables costing several thousand dollars. I thought these were mildly
amusing metaphors for the excesses of the audio connections industry,
not comments regarding actual products. Today while surfing the web I
came across the Nordost line of speaker cables costing $10K a pair.
Standard phrases such as 'it boggles the mind' are useless here.
|
Yep. Don't forget interconnects. Here's some in the same general category:
http://www.highendaudio.com/stealth.htm.
Same goes with power cables, and wooden blocks to stick on top of your amp.
Of course, there's also the cheap end items that still boggle the mind: How
about A little fork that lifts the cables off the floor, for improved sound
quality? Only $20 each, of $159.95 for a set of eight!
This is why the disparagers get so wound up over these things. It's not just
silliness, it's criminal fraud, and the victims are vigorously defending
their right to be defrauded.
| Quote: | It seems to me that the one can always connect one speaker with the
fancy wire and the other with plain wire and then set the amp to mono
and then settle the whole thing for yourself. Do the buyers of $10K
speaker wire ever try this?
|
That's not the best test necessarily, because even if you had perfectly
placed speakers in an exactly symmetrical room, there's no telling that
your ears behave the same way. There are several ways of accurately measuring
these things though, both electronic and acoustic, and in almost every case
the ability to hear a difference was directly tied to the ability to see
the cable being tested. In other words, there was no audible difference.
Colin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trevor Wilson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:38 am Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
"hoarse with no name" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:no-11FEF5.20122619102005@cnews.newsguy.com...
| Quote: |
Posters to this group have made disparaging comments regarding speaker
cables costing several thousand dollars. I thought these were mildly
amusing metaphors for the excesses of the audio connections industry,
not comments regarding actual products. Today while surfing the web I
came across the Nordost line of speaker cables costing $10K a pair.
Standard phrases such as 'it boggles the mind' are useless here.
It seems to me that the one can always connect one speaker with the
fancy wire and the other with plain wire and then set the amp to mono
and then settle the whole thing for yourself. Do the buyers of $10K
speaker wire ever try this?
|
**Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another. However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT inductance. In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type cables.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Colin B.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
Trevor Wilson <trevor@spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: |
"hoarse with no name" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:no-11FEF5.20122619102005@cnews.newsguy.com...
Posters to this group have made disparaging comments regarding speaker
cables costing several thousand dollars. I thought these were mildly
amusing metaphors for the excesses of the audio connections industry,
not comments regarding actual products. Today while surfing the web I
came across the Nordost line of speaker cables costing $10K a pair.
Standard phrases such as 'it boggles the mind' are useless here.
It seems to me that the one can always connect one speaker with the
fancy wire and the other with plain wire and then set the amp to mono
and then settle the whole thing for yourself. Do the buyers of $10K
speaker wire ever try this?
**Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another. However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT inductance. In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type cables.
|
1) Yes, I have. I've listened very carefully to cables. Without being able
to see them, I can't hear the difference in a high-end listening room.
2) If parallel capacitance is a significant (i.e. audible) factor in your
speaker cables, then something is VERY VERY VERY wrong in your system!
How low is the output impedance in your power amp anyways? For that
matter, how high does your speaker impedance reach, in order to let the
shunt capacitance of the cables factor in?
Low capacitance should be the driving factor for interconnects, yes; just as
low impedance should be the driving factor for speaker cables. However,
there's actual science behind it--not magic! If your equipment is so badly
designed that it needs special cables to sound right, then you need better
equipment, NOT better cables.
I highly recommend anyone who wants to understand some of the facts (and
some of the BS) involved here hunt down copies of Andrew Marshall's Audio
Ideas Guide, summer/fall 94 and winter 95 issues. Jim Hayward explains this
stuff quite clearly, and walks away leaving a big piece of rope dangling for
the audiophiles.
Colin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trevor Wilson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:01 am Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
"Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote in message
news:43584d74@news.nucleus.com...
| Quote: | Trevor Wilson <trevor@spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
"hoarse with no name" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:no-11FEF5.20122619102005@cnews.newsguy.com...
Posters to this group have made disparaging comments regarding speaker
cables costing several thousand dollars. I thought these were mildly
amusing metaphors for the excesses of the audio connections industry,
not comments regarding actual products. Today while surfing the web I
came across the Nordost line of speaker cables costing $10K a pair.
Standard phrases such as 'it boggles the mind' are useless here.
It seems to me that the one can always connect one speaker with the
fancy wire and the other with plain wire and then set the amp to mono
and then settle the whole thing for yourself. Do the buyers of $10K
speaker wire ever try this?
**Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another.
However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT inductance.
In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type
cables.
1) Yes, I have. I've listened very carefully to cables. Without being able
to see them, I can't hear the difference in a high-end listening room.
|
**I'll ask the question again (note the emphasis):
Have you ever tried using DIFFERENT speaker cables, other than regular 'zip'
cable? ('Zip' cable encompasses the vast majority of regular speaker cables,
including Monster and other cables, where there are two conductors arranged
side-by-side)
| Quote: | 2) If parallel capacitance is a significant (i.e. audible) factor in your
speaker cables, then something is VERY VERY VERY wrong in your system!
|
**Read my words. I said NOTHING about capacitance. INDUCTANCE is the word I
used.
| Quote: | How low is the output impedance in your power amp anyways?
|
**Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
For that
| Quote: | matter, how high does your speaker impedance reach, in order to let the
shunt capacitance of the cables factor in?
|
**Why do you keep mentioning capacitance? It is of no relevance.
| Quote: |
Low capacitance should be the driving factor for interconnects, yes; just
as
low impedance should be the driving factor for speaker cables. However,
there's actual science behind it--not magic! If your equipment is so badly
designed that it needs special cables to sound right, then you need better
equipment, NOT better cables.
|
**Still with the capacitance. Try reading next time.
| Quote: |
I highly recommend anyone who wants to understand some of the facts (and
some of the BS) involved here hunt down copies of Andrew Marshall's Audio
Ideas Guide, summer/fall 94 and winter 95 issues. Jim Hayward explains
this
stuff quite clearly, and walks away leaving a big piece of rope dangling
for
the audiophiles.
|
**I suggest you read what I wrote, not what you imagine I wrote. You may
just learn something.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Crowley
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:25 pm Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
| Quote: | **I suggest you read what I wrote, not what you imagine
I wrote. You may just learn something.
|
The prosecution resets.
I had to check to see if this somehow got cross-posted
from rec.audio.magic or somewhere. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hoarse with no name
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:34 am Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
In article <43582a60$1@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: | **Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another. However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT inductance. In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type cables.
|
I use something called 18SW wire and don't remember ever having used
anything else. At the same time, I still have experience in this which
leads to believe speaker wire is irrelevant. The wire I use corrodes
over time. Every time I change apartments or move the furniture around I
change the wire due to the corrosion at the exposed ends. It never
produces an audible difference. This leads me to believe that expensive
speaker wire is irrelevant. I also remember all the times a speaker was
connected by just a few of the strands and it sounded just the same. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Larsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
hoarse with no name wrote:
| Quote: | Posters to this group have made disparaging comments regarding speaker
cables costing several thousand dollars. I thought these were mildly
amusing metaphors for the excesses of the audio connections industry,
not comments regarding actual products. Today while surfing the web I
came across the Nordost line of speaker cables costing $10K a pair.
Standard phrases such as 'it boggles the mind' are useless here.
It seems to me that the one can always connect one speaker with the
fancy wire and the other with plain wire and then set the amp to mono
and then settle the whole thing for yourself. Do the buyers of $10K
speaker wire ever try this?
|
<earnest, no way man!>
No way, can not be done. You can not listen to the effects on the stereo
imaging by listening to mono.
Take care when AB testing cables, they need to run the exact same route
over the floor so that the sound gets the same influence from nearby
shakti stones. You will of course have the problem that the Shakti
stones need to be placed differently for each type of cable, but with a
diligent effort you should be able to install the alternative set of
cables in no more than a couple of weeks, and this is short enough time
for the memory of how it sounded with the other cable to be vividly
present.
For ABX testing, build an identical house and teleport listener
blindfolded between houses.
</earnest, no way man!>
O;-)
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
******************************************* |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stewart Pinkerton
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:10 am Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:34:39 -0700, hoarse with no name <no@spam.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <43582a60$1@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another. However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT inductance. In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type cables.
|
They don't 'measure better', they simply have *less* inductance than a
standard 'zip' construction. Whether that's a good thing depends on
your system. Note that paralleled multi-way computer cable does the
same thing for a tenth of the cost - and it fits nicely under carpets.
| Quote: | I use something called 18SW wire and don't remember ever having used
anything else. At the same time, I still have experience in this which
leads to believe speaker wire is irrelevant. The wire I use corrodes
over time. Every time I change apartments or move the furniture around I
change the wire due to the corrosion at the exposed ends. It never
produces an audible difference. This leads me to believe that expensive
speaker wire is irrelevant. I also remember all the times a speaker was
connected by just a few of the strands and it sounded just the same.
|
Sensible advice, as 99% of all reported problems with electronics turn
out to be a bad connection.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trevor Wilson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
"hoarse with no name" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:no-BB71AD.16343921102005@cnews.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | In article <43582a60$1@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another.
However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT inductance.
In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type
cables.
I use something called 18SW wire and don't remember ever having used
anything else.
|
**OK. So you are making a statement based on ignorance and lack of
experience (with the particular product). That makes sense.
At the same time, I still have experience in this which
| Quote: | leads to believe speaker wire is irrelevant. The wire I use corrodes
over time. Every time I change apartments or move the furniture around I
change the wire due to the corrosion at the exposed ends. It never
produces an audible difference. This leads me to believe that expensive
speaker wire is irrelevant. I also remember all the times a speaker was
connected by just a few of the strands and it sounded just the same.
|
**Fair enough. That is YOUR experience. Does that qualify you to make
pronouncements for everyone else?
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trevor Wilson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:11 pm Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d6ijl1h56dsjr80f5qjm5haflgb0puiudi@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:34:39 -0700, hoarse with no name <no@spam.com
wrote:
In article <43582a60$1@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another.
However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT
inductance. In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type
cables.
They don't 'measure better', they simply have *less* inductance than a
standard 'zip' construction. Whether that's a good thing depends on
your system.
|
**Only in an incompetently designed system will the result be worse.
Note that paralleled multi-way computer cable does the
| Quote: | same thing for a tenth of the cost - and it fits nicely under carpets.
|
**Indeed it does.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
Trevor Wilson wrote:
| Quote: | "hoarse with no name" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:no-BB71AD.16343921102005@cnews.newsguy.com...
In article <43582a60$1@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another.
However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT inductance.
In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type
cables.
I use something called 18SW wire and don't remember ever having used
anything else.
**OK. So you are making a statement based on ignorance and lack of
experience (with the particular product). That makes sense.
At the same time, I still have experience in this which
leads to believe speaker wire is irrelevant. The wire I use corrodes
over time. Every time I change apartments or move the furniture around I
change the wire due to the corrosion at the exposed ends. It never
produces an audible difference. This leads me to believe that expensive
speaker wire is irrelevant. I also remember all the times a speaker was
connected by just a few of the strands and it sounded just the same.
**Fair enough. That is YOUR experience. Does that qualify you to make
pronouncements for everyone else?
|
Why not? It never stopped me.
Anyway, superconducting cables kept at liquid nitrogen temperature will probably
be slightly better than copper.
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trevor Wilson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:32 am Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk.bruere@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3rukn8Flc742U1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Trevor Wilson wrote:
"hoarse with no name" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:no-BB71AD.16343921102005@cnews.newsguy.com...
In article <43582a60$1@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another.
However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT
inductance. In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type
cables.
I use something called 18SW wire and don't remember ever having used
anything else.
**OK. So you are making a statement based on ignorance and lack of
experience (with the particular product). That makes sense.
At the same time, I still have experience in this which
leads to believe speaker wire is irrelevant. The wire I use corrodes
over time. Every time I change apartments or move the furniture around I
change the wire due to the corrosion at the exposed ends. It never
produces an audible difference. This leads me to believe that expensive
speaker wire is irrelevant. I also remember all the times a speaker was
connected by just a few of the strands and it sounded just the same.
**Fair enough. That is YOUR experience. Does that qualify you to make
pronouncements for everyone else?
Why not? It never stopped me.
Anyway, superconducting cables kept at liquid nitrogen temperature will
probably be slightly better than copper.
|
**Not necessarily. Such cables will still possess inductance. And the
inductance has nothing to do with the material and everything to do with the
construction.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rocky
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:50 am Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
Inductance.
The speaker has inductance measured in tens or hundreds of millihenries. As
does the crossover.
The wire, any kind, as long as you don't coil it up, will have inductance
measured in microhenries. As in less than 10 uH. More like 1 uH. Or less.
So, the wire's inductance will have an effect on the speaker/crossover
combination on the order of 0.000001, i.e. 1/10000 of 1%.
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:435acbf4@news.comindico.com.au...
| Quote: |
"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk.bruere@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3rukn8Flc742U1@individual.net...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"hoarse with no name" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:no-BB71AD.16343921102005@cnews.newsguy.com...
In article <43582a60$1@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**Have YOU ever tried using different speaker cables, other than
regular
'zip' cable?
BTW: My words do not endorse any one type of cable other another.
However,
Nordost cables DO measure better than regular 'zip' cable WRT
inductance. In
that sense, such cables may offer audible advantages over 'zip' type
cables.
I use something called 18SW wire and don't remember ever having used
anything else.
**OK. So you are making a statement based on ignorance and lack of
experience (with the particular product). That makes sense.
At the same time, I still have experience in this which
leads to believe speaker wire is irrelevant. The wire I use corrodes
over time. Every time I change apartments or move the furniture around I
change the wire due to the corrosion at the exposed ends. It never
produces an audible difference. This leads me to believe that expensive
speaker wire is irrelevant. I also remember all the times a speaker was
connected by just a few of the strands and it sounded just the same.
**Fair enough. That is YOUR experience. Does that qualify you to make
pronouncements for everyone else?
Why not? It never stopped me.
Anyway, superconducting cables kept at liquid nitrogen temperature will
probably be slightly better than copper.
**Not necessarily. Such cables will still possess inductance. And the
inductance has nothing to do with the material and everything to do with
the construction.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:28 am Post subject:
Re: I thought you all were kidding about $10K speaker cables |
|
|
Rocky wrote:
| Quote: | Inductance.
The speaker has inductance measured in tens or hundreds of
millihenries. As does the crossover.
|
Wrong. It might have INDUCTORS in it with those values, but
that is not what the impedance exhibits. At high frequencies,
where all this has any relevance, typical electyrodynamic
speaker systems have impedances whose effective inductance is
in the realm of TENTHS or HUNDREDTHS of millihenries. As one
example, a typical 1" dome tweeter has an effective inductance
of about 0.04 mH in parallel with about 12 ohms, all in series
with about 8-10 ohms.
That same speaker, two octaves lower, has an impedance that's
tending towards capacitive, by the way.
| Quote: | The wire, any kind, as long as you don't coil it up, will
have inductance measured in microhenries. As in less than
10 uH. More like 1 uH. Or less.
|
Well, given that you're off by two orders of magnitude in the
effective inductance of speakers, are we to trust your claims
here as well?
And, what does coiling up speaker wire have to do with the
inductance? (subtle hint: nothing!)
That the speaker cable inductance is irrelevant is one issue.
Your claims as to WHY are far off the mark. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in