Zigakly
Guest
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 Posted:
Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:37 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
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| Quote: | Ok, had to read through this a couple of times to digest what you were
getting at... Right now, I'm figuring on using the main L/R outs on the
console to feed both inputs of my stereo (dual mono, in this config...)
x-over, setting both sides to about 100hz (I'll try leaving a hole in
there and sweeping things around 100hz a tiny bit, too...), feeding
mid/high with one channel and subs with the other. Then, I just pan the
strips to where I want them; centred for kick and bass (anything else,
like toms, etc.??) and hard over for vox and guitars (and snare,
etc.??) to keep them out of the subs...
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That should work fine
| Quote: | It sounds like you want to split the kick so that you can process two,
full range kick signals BEFORE routing them separately to subs and
mains, as opposed to splitting AFTER processing, as in my method
above... This makes sense if you want to do different processing on
each signal. Are you saying you like to gate/compress the sub signal
and leave the mains' signal uncompressed?
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Bingo
| Quote: | And if so, could I just split
the kick channel into another channel (via a TS cable one click into
the insert, to the other ch. line in), process each and then pan them
both hard to opposite sides?
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Right, but be wary of which mixers do and don't support the one-click insert
output. I'm reluctant to trust that sort of connection, too often someone
sees it and thinks it's supposed to be all the way in, there goes your kick
to the mains, and it might take a while to figure out where it went.
Soldering tip to ring on a TRS cable is quick and more reliable.
| Quote: | Finally, you only mention this in relation
to the kick. Do you use this approach on floor tom and/or bass, as
well?
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Not bass, but I only put the DI to subs, and cab mic to mains, assuming it's
worth mic'ing. With floor tom I usually just lift the low cut and run it to
mains only. IMO the kick should have dominance over the floor tom, that's
one way of ensuring it, YMMV. |
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Peter Larsen
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:43 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
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sluggo wrote:
| Quote: | I can get a pretty thick, punchy kick, but the bass guitar
seems lost in the mix and has never been as defined as I'd
like it. If I turn it up, it just overpowers everything else
and then things do get muddy.
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Is this a stage floor problem?
How much of it comes from the players gear?
How much of what comes from the players gear finds a way through other
mics to the mix?
| Quote: | At first, I thought power was the problem,
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My first thought is mic stand vibration insulators. My next is to reduce
the sound level on stage.
| Quote: | so we bought a Behringer EP2500, which we bridged on the subs.
This only seemed to make matters worse.
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OK, you have some system with subs and mains. I have overlooked it if it
was specified, but you (also) seem to have some kind of crosssing over
issue, not crossing over but just running the mains full range comes to
mind.
| Quote: | First, I had no way to balance the 2 amps except by ear
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A Behringer measurement mic is affordable.
| Quote: | and make fine adjustments with the x-over (which I keep
out front in my rack, for now). With the B amp, I lost
even more punchiness and definition and low feedback
would become a problem.
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Again a phase, polarity or summation issue is suggested, the bass from
your subs seems to conflict with bass that has another route into the
room.
| Quote: | (Couldn't afford an EQ initially, so proper mic placement
and gain structure had made feedback a non-issue till then...)
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Good, an EQ does not _solve_ this, it can remedy and/or gloss over, but
not solve acoustic problems. Solve them first, so that you can benefit
from what an EQ can do, ie. get the frequency response the last piece of
the way to linearity and remedy differences in the rooms reaction to
sound when audience arrives.
| Quote: | I couldn't push the EP2500 at all without the clip (limiter?)
lights coming on and by the time I'd get things under
control and sounding half decent, the B amp would seem pointless;
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I do not know your setup, but the largest _peak_ level requirement is in
the low mid range, not in the bass. This is not just about amplifier
power, but about how it works via the loudspeakers power to sound
conversion efficiency, just assuming that the largest amp is needed in
the bass range should not be done.
| Quote: | I
could get higher SPLs and better low end just using the AP3000 alone.
Once I aquired a 31 band, I could eliminate the FB and work on the
bottom a bit, but it was still suffering, so I'd usually end up just
using the one amp. BTW our subs are on castors, so stage coupling
should be reduced, right?
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An airspace between a bass loudspeaker cabinet and the floor it is on is
not good, but in the real world probably difficult to avoid.
| Quote: | So, I start reading and come across this 'subwoofer power alley'
phenomenon. The rooms we play, the stage is usually low (or
the floor), so pushing the subs together is rarely an option
(what would hold up the mid/highs? lol).
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Helium filled balloons would be one approach, and certainly a novelty in
show biz.
| Quote: | So, I figure I'd just unplug one and turn up the
remaining one. That helped a lot as far as evening out the hot spots,
as I moved around the room. And in small rooms, I still had lots of low
end power to spare, but the quality of that sound didn't improve all
that much.
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You still have an improperly designed stack.
| Quote: | So, now I've got this extra sub just sitting there holding
up a mid/high cab, a spare amp and a x-over channel I don't
use and I want to experiment. I'm thinking about trying the
'aux send to sub' idea and as well as getting the vocal and
guitar mics out of the subs.
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You are somewhat on the right track, one of the issues seems that too
much bass finds alternative routes to the audience. Mic stand vibration
insulators has been mentioned as the first line of defense. Next there
is the mic channel high pass filter, it depends also on mic
characteristics how it should be used. Having "not too many" different
mic types" also helps. Try to avoid boosting channel frequency response
alteration options, aim for mostly using cut when you use tone controls.
Generally speaking the more difference there is between how you treat
different "input elements" of sound, the less easy actually mixing to a
pleasant blend will be. You want a mix that comes together, not one that
comes apart.
| Quote: | I guess it's here I should let you guys get a word in edgewise...
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We know you have a bass player, a system with subs and mains, one power
amp specified, more assumed to be present and a cross-over. It is quite
likely that the issue is to some extent about how you cross-over. Tell
us more.
| Quote: | If I go the aux send route, what's the chain look like?
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First make that PA a quality HiFi system, yes - you will get
directionality in the bass by having two separate subs a stage width
apart, yes - it may be worthwhile to aim for keeping all subs together
in a centered position, but first get that front system to actually work
as it should, and perhaps that will end up being a lot less of an issue.
| Quote: | I'm a bit fuzzy on this. Also, it seems to me that it would
be easier to just use the board L/R outs and the channel pan
pots to direct stuff where I want, as has been suggested
elsewhere.
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It is possible to get into endless complexity and confusion, aim for
something that is simple and straightforward to operate.
| Quote: | Then I would use both sides of the x-over, one side as a HPF
and the other as a LPF and match the freqs.
on both channels, right?
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Minimum main to sub electronic cross-over spec is likely to be something
like 115 Hz 18 dB pr. octave symmetrical. Exactly what fits best is a
very different question, the entire system has to be taken into account,
but a good guess is that the single largest part of your problem
scenario is that you do not high pass filter the mains.
| Quote: | Finally, I'm thinking this might be a dumb question,
but here goes... Would sending just the kick into the
2nd sub (using the spare x-over ch. as a LPF) help
definition by leaving the main sub free to handle
the bass guitar and the rest of the low end, or would
I just get my low end interference problems back again?
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I would not want to go that route.
| Quote: | Thanks in advance for your help and sorry about the length. But,
someone did mention it was getting quiet in here... ;-)
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After being in a loud room for some time things do appear to be more
quiet, there is a technnical term for this effect, it is called
temporary deafness. Do take care of ear protection for yourself and the
band and do take care to deploy your sound system so that extreme
hot-spots are avoided, sober people tend to be good at avoiding such and
drunk people tend to be less good at it, partly because of not sensing
loudness correctly because of being drunk.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
--
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* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
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