| Author |
Message |
sluggo
Guest
|
 Posted:
Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Cleaning up the bottom end... |
|
|
Been lurking here for a few months and have really learned alot...
Been folowing the "What should be in the subs?" and similar threads
closely because I'm having trouble getting my bottom end sounding
good...
A quick intro first: About a year ago, some of my buddies put together
a 4 piece rock act and asked me if I would do sound for them. I started
out with just a rudementary knowledge, but over the last year I've
worked hard to learn the basics, train my ears and just absorb as much
info as possible while experimenting as much as I dare. I must be doing
something right, because I/they get lots of positive comments on the
sound and a couple of other bands have approached me recently...
In large part, I have you folks to thank for helping to greatly
accelerate my learning curve...
But, I am starting to hit some bottlenecks...
First, they only play a gig about once a month. Very occasionally, I
can do a full PA rehersal with them, but not nearly often enough to try
out all the things I learn in the meantime. In between these golden
opportunities, I run loops/samples through my rig (sans PA) at home,
using my headphones, to try things out; A/B stuff, ear train, etc. But,
there's only so much you can do away from a live setting. The problem
is, I think my ears are developing the ability to hear the
difficiencies in the sound much faster than I have a chance to learn
how to fix it.
Hopefully, you guys can help me prioritize and save me trying things
that don't make sense in my situation...
Which is...
We play small to medium sized rooms that often have tiny stages backed
into corners or even alcoves. Mics are: drums(x4), guitar amps(x2),
vox(x3). Bass is DI. Two monitors front stage w/vox only... I've read
here, of the importance of keeping the stage volume down in these tight
situations and bug the guys all the time about it. I've managed to get
the guitar players' stage volume down with smaller amps (no more
Marshall stacks ;-), tilt stands and cross-stage aiming. But, the
bassist insists on monitoring loudly through his amp. With a guitar amp
pointed at each ear, 4 feet away, I feel for him. But, in small rooms
and/or at the start of the night when the crowd/volume is low, his
stage volume causes me no end of misery trying to mix out front. BTW, I
also have to compress him pretty hard because he's still pretty
inconsistent (hits his top string way harder than the rest...).
FOH, I run 2-way, mono through a pair of Yamaha S215V (15"x2) tops and
a pair of Yorkville Elite SW800 subs (18" front loaded). I cross at
120hz. Initially, all 4 cabs were run paralleled into each channel of a
Yorkville AP3000.
Right from the beginning (but especially lately, as my ears have gotten
better), I've not been too happy with the bottom end... It's not
absolutely horrible. It's not so much muddy, it's just seems
'cluttered', 'busy' and not as 'open' as I'd like it...
I can get a pretty thick, punchy kick, but the bass guitar seems lost
in the mix and has never been as defined as I'd like it. If I turn it
up, it just overpowers everything else and then things do get muddy.
At first, I thought power was the problem, so we bought a Behringer
EP2500, which we bridged on the subs. This only seemed to make matters
worse. First, I had no way to balance the 2 amps except by ear and make
fine adjustments with the x-over (which I keep out front in my rack,
for now). With the B amp, I lost even more punchiness and definition
and low feedback would become a problem. (Couldn't afford an EQ
initially, so proper mic placement and gain structure had made feedback
a non-issue till then...) I couldn't push the EP2500 at all without the
clip (limiter?) lights coming on and by the time I'd get things under
control and sounding half decent, the B amp would seem pointless; I
could get higher SPLs and better low end just using the AP3000 alone.
Once I aquired a 31 band, I could eliminate the FB and work on the
bottom a bit, but it was still suffering, so I'd usually end up just
using the one amp. BTW our subs are on castors, so stage coupling
should be reduced, right?
So, I start reading and come across this 'subwoofer power alley'
phenomenon. The rooms we play, the stage is usually low (or the floor),
so pushing the subs together is rarely an option (what would hold up
the mid/highs? lol). So, I figure I'd just unplug one and turn up the
remaining one. That helped a lot as far as evening out the hot spots,
as I moved around the room. And in small rooms, I still had lots of low
end power to spare, but the quality of that sound didn't improve all
that much.
So, now I've got this extra sub just sitting there holding up a
mid/high cab, a spare amp and a x-over channel I don't use and I want
to experiment. I'm thinking about trying the 'aux send to sub' idea and
as well as getting the vocal and guitar mics out of the subs.
I guess it's here I should let you guys get a word in edgewise...
If I go the aux send route, what's the chain look like? I'm a bit fuzzy
on this. Also, it seems to me that it would be easier to just use the
board L/R outs and the channel pan pots to direct stuff where I want,
as has been suggested elsewhere. Then I would use both sides of the
x-over, one side as a HPF and the other as a LPF and match the freqs.
on both channels, right?
Finally, I'm thinking this might be a dumb question, but here goes...
Would sending just the kick into the 2nd sub (using the spare x-over
ch. as a LPF) help definition by leaving the main sub free to handle
the bass guitar and the rest of the low end, or would I just get my low
end interference problems back again?
Thanks in advance for your help and sorry about the length. But,
someone did mention it was getting quiet in here... ;-)
|
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CeeDub
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
|
|
"sluggo" <sluggo7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129250417.356098.35940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Been lurking here for a few months and have really learned alot...
Been folowing the "What should be in the subs?" and similar threads
closely because I'm having trouble getting my bottom end sounding
good...
A quick intro first: About a year ago, some of my buddies put together
a 4 piece rock act and asked me if I would do sound for them. I started
out with just a rudementary knowledge, but over the last year I've
worked hard to learn the basics, train my ears and just absorb as much
info as possible while experimenting as much as I dare. I must be doing
something right, because I/they get lots of positive comments on the
sound and a couple of other bands have approached me recently...
In large part, I have you folks to thank for helping to greatly
accelerate my learning curve...
But, I am starting to hit some bottlenecks...
First, they only play a gig about once a month. Very occasionally, I
can do a full PA rehersal with them, but not nearly often enough to try
out all the things I learn in the meantime. In between these golden
opportunities, I run loops/samples through my rig (sans PA) at home,
using my headphones, to try things out; A/B stuff, ear train, etc. But,
there's only so much you can do away from a live setting. The problem
is, I think my ears are developing the ability to hear the
difficiencies in the sound much faster than I have a chance to learn
how to fix it.
Hopefully, you guys can help me prioritize and save me trying things
that don't make sense in my situation...
Which is...
We play small to medium sized rooms that often have tiny stages backed
into corners or even alcoves. Mics are: drums(x4), guitar amps(x2),
vox(x3). Bass is DI. Two monitors front stage w/vox only... I've read
here, of the importance of keeping the stage volume down in these tight
situations and bug the guys all the time about it. I've managed to get
the guitar players' stage volume down with smaller amps (no more
Marshall stacks ;-), tilt stands and cross-stage aiming. But, the
bassist insists on monitoring loudly through his amp. With a guitar amp
pointed at each ear, 4 feet away, I feel for him. But, in small rooms
and/or at the start of the night when the crowd/volume is low, his
stage volume causes me no end of misery trying to mix out front. BTW, I
also have to compress him pretty hard because he's still pretty
inconsistent (hits his top string way harder than the rest...).
FOH, I run 2-way, mono through a pair of Yamaha S215V (15"x2) tops and
a pair of Yorkville Elite SW800 subs (18" front loaded). I cross at
120hz. Initially, all 4 cabs were run paralleled into each channel of a
Yorkville AP3000.
Right from the beginning (but especially lately, as my ears have gotten
better), I've not been too happy with the bottom end... It's not
absolutely horrible. It's not so much muddy, it's just seems
'cluttered', 'busy' and not as 'open' as I'd like it...
I can get a pretty thick, punchy kick, but the bass guitar seems lost
in the mix and has never been as defined as I'd like it. If I turn it
up, it just overpowers everything else and then things do get muddy.
At first, I thought power was the problem, so we bought a Behringer
EP2500, which we bridged on the subs. This only seemed to make matters
worse. First, I had no way to balance the 2 amps except by ear and make
fine adjustments with the x-over (which I keep out front in my rack,
for now). With the B amp, I lost even more punchiness and definition
and low feedback would become a problem. (Couldn't afford an EQ
initially, so proper mic placement and gain structure had made feedback
a non-issue till then...) I couldn't push the EP2500 at all without the
clip (limiter?) lights coming on and by the time I'd get things under
control and sounding half decent, the B amp would seem pointless; I
could get higher SPLs and better low end just using the AP3000 alone.
Once I aquired a 31 band, I could eliminate the FB and work on the
bottom a bit, but it was still suffering, so I'd usually end up just
using the one amp. BTW our subs are on castors, so stage coupling
should be reduced, right?
So, I start reading and come across this 'subwoofer power alley'
phenomenon. The rooms we play, the stage is usually low (or the floor),
so pushing the subs together is rarely an option (what would hold up
the mid/highs? lol). So, I figure I'd just unplug one and turn up the
remaining one. That helped a lot as far as evening out the hot spots,
as I moved around the room. And in small rooms, I still had lots of low
end power to spare, but the quality of that sound didn't improve all
that much.
So, now I've got this extra sub just sitting there holding up a
mid/high cab, a spare amp and a x-over channel I don't use and I want
to experiment. I'm thinking about trying the 'aux send to sub' idea and
as well as getting the vocal and guitar mics out of the subs.
I guess it's here I should let you guys get a word in edgewise...
If I go the aux send route, what's the chain look like? I'm a bit fuzzy
on this. Also, it seems to me that it would be easier to just use the
board L/R outs and the channel pan pots to direct stuff where I want,
as has been suggested elsewhere. Then I would use both sides of the
x-over, one side as a HPF and the other as a LPF and match the freqs.
on both channels, right?
Finally, I'm thinking this might be a dumb question, but here goes...
Would sending just the kick into the 2nd sub (using the spare x-over
ch. as a LPF) help definition by leaving the main sub free to handle
the bass guitar and the rest of the low end, or would I just get my low
end interference problems back again?
Thanks in advance for your help and sorry about the length. But,
someone did mention it was getting quiet in here... ;-)
|
Perhaps part of the problem might be the tight space itself. IIRC, for each
wall your speaker is near (within a couple of feet or so), you get an
increase of 3db. If each sub is in a corner, then you have a 6 db increase
in sub output. I don't recall if this is frequency dependent or not (I
should check this in Martin Collom's book "High Performance Loudspeakers"),
but regardless, you are going to get a lot more boominess out of a a
confined space such as this than a wide open stage with room for the subs to
sit without coupling to the walls. Did you say things sound much better in
larger spaces? In any event, it really can't help the situation if the
bassist is pumping his 8x10" Ampeg at 11. You need to get this guy to back
off that a bit and behave; in front of all the other folks in the band just
mention that you are doing your best to make them sound good to the
audience, but he must turn it down if they don't want it to sound muddy.
Second, you should probably pick a lower cross point, perhaps down between
80-90; I believe those 2x15 boxes should probably be fairly efficient down
to around 50 or so, so crossing them at 80-90 should leave even coverage.
Finally, are you rolling off in the subs? I don't know what the specs are on
your subs, but I'd bet that you are probably not pulling much useful stuff
below 30 Hz. You should probably engage the 30 Hz rolloff on your sub amp to
limit wasted power.
Another thing about losing definition on the bass guitar... this definition
is not really coming from the fundamental (about 42 Hz for open E; 31 Hz for
open B on a 5 string). It's coming from the overtones, many of which are
above 500 Hz. In fact, much of the bass definition is actually rather
percussive, and shows up around 1.5 kHz. I tend to notch bass around 100 Hz
to remove mud, and accentuate a bit at 1.5 to pull up some of that
percussiveness (and I'm a bass player, so I'm always interested in helping
out my sound). One last thing... you might want to get the bassist to run a
comp before his amp (perhaps taking a DI after the comp so you don't need to
fiddle with two). Having a comp can really help keep things even, and helps
to enhance definition.
Good luck.
Craig |
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Adair Winter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
|
|
That's what's so nice about digital processors you can pretty much band-pass
everything so that you only get what you want where you want it.
Take a look at the DCX2496 for a crossover and if you can maybe consider a
DEQ2496 to go with it. I think that along with the proper power on your subs
would get you alot further along if you can afford it.. (thinks selling the
old stuff would be a great idea)
Also in your head keep in mind where each instrument should sit in the freq.
spectrum, the kick drums freq won't change much but the bass guitar moves
all over the place, a accoustic guitar might have a decent lower end sound
but might also clash with something else in the mix for a "muddy sound".
Honestly I think there is where alot of people miss it, they do CRAZY EQ to
make something sound good all by itself when in reality it makes a little
more sense to place it in the mix with EQ and make changes as necessary for
leads and solos (I hope I don't get flamed for this) I'm by no means a pro
I've only been doing sound for about 7yrs. however when I learned how much
junk I could cut out with the proper amount of EQ, hight and low pass
filtering my mixes got better.
Adair |
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Rupert
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
|
|
sluggo wrote:
| Quote: | Been lurking here for a few months and have really learned alot...
Been folowing the "What should be in the subs?" and similar threads
closely because I'm having trouble getting my bottom end sounding
good...
A quick intro first: About a year ago, some of my buddies put together
a 4 piece rock act and asked me if I would do sound for them. I started
out with just a rudementary knowledge, but over the last year I've
worked hard to learn the basics, train my ears and just absorb as much
info as possible while experimenting as much as I dare. I must be doing
something right, because I/they get lots of positive comments on the
sound and a couple of other bands have approached me recently...
In large part, I have you folks to thank for helping to greatly
accelerate my learning curve...
But, I am starting to hit some bottlenecks...
First, they only play a gig about once a month. Very occasionally, I
can do a full PA rehersal with them, but not nearly often enough to try
out all the things I learn in the meantime. In between these golden
opportunities, I run loops/samples through my rig (sans PA) at home,
using my headphones, to try things out; A/B stuff, ear train, etc. But,
there's only so much you can do away from a live setting. The problem
is, I think my ears are developing the ability to hear the
difficiencies in the sound much faster than I have a chance to learn
how to fix it.
Hopefully, you guys can help me prioritize and save me trying things
that don't make sense in my situation...
Which is...
We play small to medium sized rooms that often have tiny stages backed
into corners or even alcoves. Mics are: drums(x4), guitar amps(x2),
vox(x3). Bass is DI. Two monitors front stage w/vox only... I've read
here, of the importance of keeping the stage volume down in these tight
situations and bug the guys all the time about it. I've managed to get
the guitar players' stage volume down with smaller amps (no more
Marshall stacks ;-), tilt stands and cross-stage aiming. But, the
bassist insists on monitoring loudly through his amp. With a guitar amp
pointed at each ear, 4 feet away, I feel for him. But, in small rooms
and/or at the start of the night when the crowd/volume is low, his
stage volume causes me no end of misery trying to mix out front. BTW, I
also have to compress him pretty hard because he's still pretty
inconsistent (hits his top string way harder than the rest...).
FOH, I run 2-way, mono through a pair of Yamaha S215V (15"x2) tops and
a pair of Yorkville Elite SW800 subs (18" front loaded). I cross at
120hz. Initially, all 4 cabs were run paralleled into each channel of a
Yorkville AP3000.
Right from the beginning (but especially lately, as my ears have gotten
better), I've not been too happy with the bottom end... It's not
absolutely horrible. It's not so much muddy, it's just seems
'cluttered', 'busy' and not as 'open' as I'd like it...
I can get a pretty thick, punchy kick, but the bass guitar seems lost
in the mix and has never been as defined as I'd like it. If I turn it
up, it just overpowers everything else and then things do get muddy.
At first, I thought power was the problem, so we bought a Behringer
EP2500, which we bridged on the subs. This only seemed to make matters
worse. First, I had no way to balance the 2 amps except by ear and make
fine adjustments with the x-over (which I keep out front in my rack,
for now). With the B amp, I lost even more punchiness and definition
and low feedback would become a problem. (Couldn't afford an EQ
initially, so proper mic placement and gain structure had made feedback
a non-issue till then...) I couldn't push the EP2500 at all without the
clip (limiter?) lights coming on and by the time I'd get things under
control and sounding half decent, the B amp would seem pointless; I
could get higher SPLs and better low end just using the AP3000 alone.
Once I aquired a 31 band, I could eliminate the FB and work on the
bottom a bit, but it was still suffering, so I'd usually end up just
using the one amp. BTW our subs are on castors, so stage coupling
should be reduced, right?
So, I start reading and come across this 'subwoofer power alley'
phenomenon. The rooms we play, the stage is usually low (or the floor),
so pushing the subs together is rarely an option (what would hold up
the mid/highs? lol). So, I figure I'd just unplug one and turn up the
remaining one. That helped a lot as far as evening out the hot spots,
as I moved around the room. And in small rooms, I still had lots of low
end power to spare, but the quality of that sound didn't improve all
that much.
So, now I've got this extra sub just sitting there holding up a
mid/high cab, a spare amp and a x-over channel I don't use and I want
to experiment. I'm thinking about trying the 'aux send to sub' idea and
as well as getting the vocal and guitar mics out of the subs.
I guess it's here I should let you guys get a word in edgewise...
If I go the aux send route, what's the chain look like? I'm a bit fuzzy
on this. Also, it seems to me that it would be easier to just use the
board L/R outs and the channel pan pots to direct stuff where I want,
as has been suggested elsewhere. Then I would use both sides of the
x-over, one side as a HPF and the other as a LPF and match the freqs.
on both channels, right?
Finally, I'm thinking this might be a dumb question, but here goes...
Would sending just the kick into the 2nd sub (using the spare x-over
ch. as a LPF) help definition by leaving the main sub free to handle
the bass guitar and the rest of the low end, or would I just get my low
end interference problems back again?
Thanks in advance for your help and sorry about the length. But,
someone did mention it was getting quiet in here... ;-)
|
With a bass player that loud in small venues, you probably don't need
to put any of them in the mix. If you do, consider using the HPF on the
board and roll off that bottom end so it doesn't step on everything
else. It may seem counter intuitive, but it can often correct a muddy
bass situation. I also agree that crossing your subs and tops lower
could help. Crossing subs above 100Hz can give them a "boxy" quality.
The lower you can cross without straining the LF drivers in your tops,
the better it will sound generally.
As far as the subs being on castors go, that will not prevent coupling.
You have to have a lot more distance then that. You have to get the
subs off the stage. If you want to stop the power alley and use both
subs, you could center cluster them and put the tops on some other
stand.
"Subs on an aux" is a pretty simple concept. You need enough speaker
processing to high pass the tops and low pass the subs with the subs
having independent input from the aux send. With an analog crossover
setup in your case, you would want to use a 2 way stereo crossover for
the tops and feed it of the main outs of your mixer. You would use the
HF outputs of that crossover only and set the the appropriate LF
cutoff. The subs will require an additional crossover channel using
only the LF output, set to the appropriate cutoff frequency. That
crossover channel is then feed by a post fader aux send. You then
assign whatever channels you want to reach the subs but turning up that
aux send feeding the sub crossover. One other possible advantage to
having this separate crossover control between subs and tops is that
you have the ability to "underlap" your crossoverpoints, which can be
helpful in rooms where their is too much LF buildup in the crossover
region that is not easily corrected with EQ.
This setup can also be done with digital processors. Some have 3 or 4
inputs so you can do everything in one unit. For larger multi-way
systems, 2 DSP's may be required. As far as using an EQ to help tune
the subs, you really need a parametric EQ. A graphic will not give you
very good control as there are only a few frequencies that can be
controlled by a graphic in the sub range. I use an Ashly PEQ for my
subs. They have 5 bands that can sweep the entire range from 20-20KHz,
so they can be tweaked well. If you go the DSP route, you'll have all
the processing you need in one unit.
Rupert |
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Mike
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
|
|
| Quote: | FOH, I run 2-way, mono through a pair of Yamaha S215V
(15"x2) tops and a pair of Yorkville Elite SW800 subs (18"
front loaded). I cross at 120hz. Initially, all 4 cabs were run
paralleled into each channel of a Yorkville AP3000.
|
Couple of thoughts here...
#1 - Crossover point is too high. 100Hz is more common. Or, as
suggested elsewhere, rool off the subs at 80Hz and the tops at 100Hz.
#2 - The AP3000 runs 750W at 4 ohms and 1200W at 2 ohms. The tops
should be a 4ohm cabinet, so the two in parallel get you 1200W for the two
cabinets. The subs should be 8ohms which gives you only750W for the pair of
subs, or 325W/cabinet which is NOT enough power.
#3 - Are you running a high pass filter on the subs??
| Quote: | Right from the beginning (but especially lately, as my ears have
gotten better), I've not been too happy with the bottom end...
It's not absolutely horrible. It's not so much muddy, it's just
seems 'cluttered', 'busy' and not as 'open' as I'd like it...
I can get a pretty thick, punchy kick, but the bass guitar seems
lost in the mix and has never been as defined as I'd like it. If I
turn it up, it just overpowers everything else and then things do
get muddy.
|
Sounds like you've got multiple instruments fighting over the same
frequency range.....
| Quote: | At first, I thought power was the problem, so we bought a
Behringer EP2500, which we bridged on the subs. This only
seemed to make matters worse. First, I had no way to
balance the 2 amps except by ear and make fine adjustments
with the x-over (which I keep out front in my rack, for now).
With the B amp, I lost even more punchiness and definition
and low feedback would become a problem. (Couldn't afford
an EQ initially, so proper mic placement and gain structure
had made feedback a non-issue till then...) I couldn't push the
EP2500 at all without the clip (limiter?) lights coming on and
by the time I'd get things under control and sounding half
decent, the B amp would seem pointless; I could get higher
SPLs and better low end just using the AP3000 alone.
|
The EP2500 gives you 2400W runing bridged 4 ohm which works out to 1200W
per sub (wired in parallel) which is closer to what you should be feeding
the subs. The problem is that you're running the amp fully loaded. You'd
be better off using one amp running 8 ohms bridged per sub. There is NO
substitute for qood guality amps running the correct amount of power for you
speakers.
The lack of EQ is also hurting you because you can't tune the PA to the
room....
| Quote: | Once I aquired a 31 band, I could eliminate the FB and work on the
bottom a bit, but it was still suffering, so I'd usually end up just
using the one amp. BTW our subs are on castors, so stage coupling
should be reduced, right?
|
Yes and no. The sub is still close enought to the stage (reletive to
the wavelenght of the frequencies used) that it'll couple acoustically. The
castors do provide isoltaion though so that the mechanical
movement/vibration of the sub isn't transmitted to the stage directly.
| Quote: | So, I start reading and come across this 'subwoofer power alley'
phenomenon. The rooms we play, the stage is usually low (or the
floor), so pushing the subs together is rarely an option (what
would hold up the mid/highs? lol). So, I figure I'd just unplug one
and turn up the remaining one. That helped a lot as far as evening
out the hot spots, as I moved around the room. And in small
rooms, I still had lots of low end power to spare, but the quality
of that sound didn't improve all that much.
|
The quality won't change much.... In a room you're still going to have
boundry loading at the walls so you'll never get even LF coverage.
| Quote: | So, now I've got this extra sub just sitting there holding up a
mid/high cab, a spare amp and a x-over channel I don't use
and I want to experiment. I'm thinking about trying the 'aux
send to sub' idea and as well as getting the vocal and guitar
mics out of the subs.
|
Reducing your crossover point to 100Hz and using the low cut on you
mixer should already eliminate most of the vocal/guitars going to the subs
anyways...
If you want to run the subs off an aux, you'll need an EQ and crossover
channel for that in adition to the ones already used for the mains.
| Quote: | If I go the aux send route, what's the chain look like?
|
Main outputs-->EQ-->crossover-->main amp
Aux out (sub)-->EQ-->crossover-->sub amp
| Quote: | Also, it seems to me that it would be easier to just use the
board L/R outs and the channel pan pots to direct stuff
where I want, as has been suggested elsewhere. Then
I would use both sides of the x-over, one side as a HPF
and the other as a LPF and match the freqs. on both
channels, right?
|
That's another workable option. One benifit is that you save an aux
out, but you'll have to run the rig in mono.
| Quote: | Finally, I'm thinking this might be a dumb question, but
here goes... Would sending just the kick into the 2nd
sub (using the spare x-over ch. as a LPF) help definition
by leaving the main sub free to handle the bass guitar
and the rest of the low end, or would I just get my low
end interference problems back again?
|
You're better off running the same thing in both subs. The only way to
get good LF responce is to have enough speaker area and power to move air.
Also, don't forget proper processing. That includes, EQ, time alignment
(mains to subs), limiters and crossovers (low cut for the subs and main/sub
points).
Mike Borkhuis |
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Bryon Billado
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
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|
On 10/13/05 8:40 PM, in article
1129250417.356098.35940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "sluggo"
<sluggo7@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Been lurking here for a few months and have really learned alot...
Been folowing the "What should be in the subs?" and similar threads
closely because I'm having trouble getting my bottom end sounding
good...
A quick intro first: About a year ago, some of my buddies put together
a 4 piece rock act and asked me if I would do sound for them. I started
out with just a rudementary knowledge, but over the last year I've
worked hard to learn the basics, train my ears and just absorb as much
info as possible while experimenting as much as I dare. I must be doing
something right, because I/they get lots of positive comments on the
sound and a couple of other bands have approached me recently...
In large part, I have you folks to thank for helping to greatly
accelerate my learning curve...
But, I am starting to hit some bottlenecks...
First, they only play a gig about once a month. Very occasionally, I
can do a full PA rehersal with them, but not nearly often enough to try
out all the things I learn in the meantime. In between these golden
opportunities, I run loops/samples through my rig (sans PA) at home,
using my headphones, to try things out; A/B stuff, ear train, etc. But,
there's only so much you can do away from a live setting. The problem
is, I think my ears are developing the ability to hear the
difficiencies in the sound much faster than I have a chance to learn
how to fix it.
Hopefully, you guys can help me prioritize and save me trying things
that don't make sense in my situation...
Which is...
We play small to medium sized rooms that often have tiny stages backed
into corners or even alcoves. Mics are: drums(x4), guitar amps(x2),
vox(x3). Bass is DI. Two monitors front stage w/vox only... I've read
here, of the importance of keeping the stage volume down in these tight
situations and bug the guys all the time about it. I've managed to get
the guitar players' stage volume down with smaller amps (no more
Marshall stacks ;-), tilt stands and cross-stage aiming. But, the
bassist insists on monitoring loudly through his amp. With a guitar amp
pointed at each ear, 4 feet away, I feel for him. But, in small rooms
and/or at the start of the night when the crowd/volume is low, his
stage volume causes me no end of misery trying to mix out front. BTW, I
also have to compress him pretty hard because he's still pretty
inconsistent (hits his top string way harder than the rest...).
FOH, I run 2-way, mono through a pair of Yamaha S215V (15"x2) tops and
a pair of Yorkville Elite SW800 subs (18" front loaded). I cross at
120hz. Initially, all 4 cabs were run paralleled into each channel of a
Yorkville AP3000.
Right from the beginning (but especially lately, as my ears have gotten
better), I've not been too happy with the bottom end... It's not
absolutely horrible. It's not so much muddy, it's just seems
'cluttered', 'busy' and not as 'open' as I'd like it...
I can get a pretty thick, punchy kick, but the bass guitar seems lost
in the mix and has never been as defined as I'd like it. If I turn it
up, it just overpowers everything else and then things do get muddy.
At first, I thought power was the problem, so we bought a Behringer
EP2500, which we bridged on the subs. This only seemed to make matters
worse. First, I had no way to balance the 2 amps except by ear and make
fine adjustments with the x-over (which I keep out front in my rack,
for now). With the B amp, I lost even more punchiness and definition
and low feedback would become a problem. (Couldn't afford an EQ
initially, so proper mic placement and gain structure had made feedback
a non-issue till then...) I couldn't push the EP2500 at all without the
clip (limiter?) lights coming on and by the time I'd get things under
control and sounding half decent, the B amp would seem pointless; I
could get higher SPLs and better low end just using the AP3000 alone.
Once I aquired a 31 band, I could eliminate the FB and work on the
bottom a bit, but it was still suffering, so I'd usually end up just
using the one amp. BTW our subs are on castors, so stage coupling
should be reduced, right?
So, I start reading and come across this 'subwoofer power alley'
phenomenon. The rooms we play, the stage is usually low (or the floor),
so pushing the subs together is rarely an option (what would hold up
the mid/highs? lol). So, I figure I'd just unplug one and turn up the
remaining one. That helped a lot as far as evening out the hot spots,
as I moved around the room. And in small rooms, I still had lots of low
end power to spare, but the quality of that sound didn't improve all
that much.
So, now I've got this extra sub just sitting there holding up a
mid/high cab, a spare amp and a x-over channel I don't use and I want
to experiment. I'm thinking about trying the 'aux send to sub' idea and
as well as getting the vocal and guitar mics out of the subs.
I guess it's here I should let you guys get a word in edgewise...
If I go the aux send route, what's the chain look like? I'm a bit fuzzy
on this. Also, it seems to me that it would be easier to just use the
board L/R outs and the channel pan pots to direct stuff where I want,
as has been suggested elsewhere. Then I would use both sides of the
x-over, one side as a HPF and the other as a LPF and match the freqs.
on both channels, right?
Finally, I'm thinking this might be a dumb question, but here goes...
Would sending just the kick into the 2nd sub (using the spare x-over
ch. as a LPF) help definition by leaving the main sub free to handle
the bass guitar and the rest of the low end, or would I just get my low
end interference problems back again?
Thanks in advance for your help and sorry about the length. But,
someone did mention it was getting quiet in here... ;-)
I could not claim to be an expert.....but I would cross over quite a bit |
lower. Around 90hz to start....anywhere from 75 to 100.
This would tighten up the low end quite a bit.
At a lower crossover point, you would probably need more gain in the low end
to balance with the tops.
Try this:
Play a CD with good low end through the tops ONLY with the crossover point
as low as it will go.
Then gradually bring up the crossover point until you just begin to hear a
loss of low end in the tops.
That would be the limit of how low the tops would go.....go back one notch
down and that would be a good starting crossover point.
Hope this helps,
Bryon |
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CeeDub
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
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|
"sluggo" <sluggo7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129278111.885447.175440@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Perhaps part of the problem might be the tight space itself.
I can almost guarantee it... At the two bars that are the worst, the
stage is on the floor and in alcoves no more than 15' wide and deep...
the guys are packed pretty tight... At least the stacks sit outside of
the alcove in both cases... However, these alcoves are even more reason
why I'd like to get the non-drum mics out of the subs; just way too
much SPL building up, bouncing around, reaching mics at a million
different times/phases... I'm sure it's happening in the mid/high
range, too but so far, it's the low end that I'm noticing... Maybe if I
manage to clean up the bottom, the mid/highs will take precedence in my
consciousness and will have to be dealt with. But, one thing at a
time...
Did you say things sound much better in larger spaces?
Definately, but still not as good as I should be able to achieve, based
on the rare good sounding band I hear at the larger bars...
In any event, it really can't help the situation if the
bassist is pumping his 8x10" Ampeg at 11. You need to get this guy to
back
off that a bit and behave; in front of all the other folks in the band
just
mention that you are doing your best to make them sound good to the
audience, but he must turn it down if they don't want it to sound muddy.
Every gig, I have to bug him at least three times to turn down, because
he'll only do it in small stages... lol But, usually by the end of the
night, a full room and thus higher FOH volume has me back in control...
Still, there are other more subtle things I'd like to be adjusting and
experimenting with early in the night before a big, noisy crowd comes
in, instead of baby-sitting this guy on stage volume and fighting to
get a decent mix... In a big room, on a good night, that only takes a
couple of songs, then I can play ;-) But, I'd like it to be that way
more often...
Which raises a question; I've tried to get him to mute the amp and
listen to the mains, but he hates it. Probably because he's not hearing
his definition behind the stacks. I've tried to put him thru the
monitors, but that doesn't work either because the really LF stuff is
omni-directional and it still booms out over top of the mains at low
FOH levels... So, what if I got him to nix the amp and sent a bass
guitar signal, HPF'd to something >100hz, to his monitor for definition
and that, combined with the low stuff reaching him from the mains,
might satisfy him and keep at least some of those troblesome low freqs.
in the mains and off the stage? Just a thought...
Another thing about losing definition on the bass guitar... this
definition
is not really coming from the fundamental (about 42 Hz for open E; 31 Hz
for
open B on a 5 string). It's coming from the overtones, many of which are
above 500 Hz. In fact, much of the bass definition is actually rather
percussive, and shows up around 1.5 kHz. I tend to notch bass around 100
Hz
to remove mud, and accentuate a bit at 1.5 to pull up some of that
percussiveness (and I'm a bass player, so I'm always interested in
helping
out my sound).
I really appreciate you giving me these specific freq. values... Gives
me something concrete to work with... and my ear isn't quite yet to the
point where I'm confident finding and playing with them too much in
front of a crowd...
One last thing... you might want to get the bassist to run a
comp before his amp (perhaps taking a DI after the comp so you don't need
to
fiddle with two). Having a comp can really help keep things even, and
helps
to enhance definition.
Would love to do this, it would save me rack space and the trouble of
doing it... But, I'd have to teach him how to adjust it, which I'm only
just getting comfortable with myself... Also, I'm a bit afraid of him
listening to a compressed signal on stage and not fixing his bad habit
of hitting his E string too hard... (I don't play, but I'm assuming
this is because it's the most accessible...) Before I got a compressor
on him, it was just terrible trying to mix him out front...
Good luck.
Craig
Thanks a lot...
|
A couple more things: the room may impact the mids and highs, but likely not
as much as the lows. This is really a consequence of the wavelengths
relative to the room dimensions. More likely, the mids and highs are being
absorbed by the crowd, assuming you've got a rather full bar. This can make
it really tough to get a nice mix... "Everything sounded great at soundcheck
with the place empty, but why does it sound like crap now that the paying
customers are here?" This may also be part of the problem because once the
place fills up, you have lots more absorption of the mids and highs, leading
to a sense of increased boominess. To fix, put a high pass filter on
everything below about 150 Hz, then bring up amp power. You do have an EQ
for your FOH signals right? If not, you can fix this by EQing individual
channels (e.g. bass gtr, kick). Also, make sure to use HPFs on each vocal
channel, E-gtr, A-gtr, etc. These really don't put anything useful out below
about 120 or so and just contribute to boom (yeah, I know, the E-string on
the gtr is about 84 Hz... but most of what you hear out of it is really
coming from the harmonics).
You might get your bassist to invest in a BassPod or similar device that has
compression. I have a BassPod XT and the compressor is very simple, just one
knob! All he will need to do is crank it up about 1/2 way and he should even
out his attack. He'll also be impressed with increased sustain. Many if not
most pro bassists use some form of compression (either a dedicated
compressor, a DI/compressor/multiFX combo, or a tube preamp) to increase
sustain, even out the thumps, and control transients. He'll also find it
will give him better control over his EQ so that he can lower his stage
volume. Bringing up a bit more of the mids should give him the stage sound
he needs to play well. I don't think you should insist on him getting rid of
his bass rig, just insist that he keep it under control. If he can't hear
himself onstage, it's likely because a) he's not EQ'd correctly b) he's too
close to the drums or c) his rig is not pointed at his ears. A smaller
cabinet that is angled towards his head will help here.Depending on the cab,
raising it up on a stand or chair may also help. The idea is to get that cab
as close to his head as possible. Get him dialed in with EQ by reminding him
that much of his tone is not at 40 Hz, but much higher. Whether he decides
to get a BassPod or not, I'd suggest using a DI between his bass and his amp
so that you can take a direct signal back to the board. This will give YOU
more control over the tone coming out of his bass so you can appropriately
tailor it to fit in with the overall mix (which will change depending on the
crowd at the venue).
Good luck.
Craig |
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Ron Capik
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:01 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
|
|
sluggo wrote:
| Quote: | ...snip..
the DCX2496 in particular, since coming here... What little I knew
about SR before I actually started educating myself and doing it this
year, was pretty out-dated... Guess I need to start doing my homework
on this... We only play half a dozen different venues regularly, so
being able to RTA and save a program for each of them would really be
nice...
|
Do keep in mind that the RTA is only a starting point. After that you'll
need
to use your ears to tune the room. And you'll want to fine tune every
time
you go back to that room because things like temperature, humidity and
speaker placements will be slightly different each time.
Later...
Ron Capik
-- |
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sluggo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
|
|
| Quote: | We only play half a dozen different venues regularly, so
being able to RTA and save a program for each of them would really be
nice...
Do keep in mind that the RTA is only a starting point. After that you'll
need to use your ears to tune the room.
And you'll want to fine tune every time you go back to that room because
things like temperature, humidity and speaker placements will be
slightly different each time.
|
I understand that...
I guess I should have been more general and said "adjust for and save a
program for each room"
As you tweak the system/DSP for each room, I assume you can update the
saved settings... This makes me wonder; is it worthwhile to have 2 or
even 3 saved programs per room? One for when it's nearly empty, one for
when it's crowded and one for packed solid? Or is this just silly?
Considering how much the sound changes under these different
conditions, it would seem a plausible solution... combined with fine
tuning by ear, of course =) |
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sluggo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
|
|
| Quote: | You might get your bassist to invest in a BassPod or similar device that has
compression. I have a BassPod XT and the compressor is very simple, just one
knob! All he will need to do is crank it up about 1/2 way and he should even
out his attack. He'll also be impressed with increased sustain. Many if not
most pro bassists use some form of compression (either a dedicated
compressor, a DI/compressor/multiFX combo, or a tube preamp) to increase
sustain, even out the thumps, and control transients. He'll also find it
will give him better control over his EQ so that he can lower his stage
volume. Bringing up a bit more of the mids should give him the stage sound
he needs to play well. I don't think you should insist on him getting rid of
his bass rig, just insist that he keep it under control. If he can't hear
himself onstage, it's likely because a) he's not EQ'd correctly b) he's too
close to the drums or c) his rig is not pointed at his ears. A smaller
cabinet that is angled towards his head will help here.Depending on the cab,
raising it up on a stand or chair may also help. The idea is to get that cab
as close to his head as possible. Get him dialed in with EQ by reminding him
that much of his tone is not at 40 Hz, but much higher. Whether he decides
to get a BassPod or not, I'd suggest using a DI between his bass and his amp
so that you can take a direct signal back to the board. This will give YOU
more control over the tone coming out of his bass so you can appropriately
tailor it to fit in with the overall mix (which will change depending on the
crowd at the venue).
|
Tons more great stuff here... Some of which I was already doing (eg.
the DI)... Our bassist is a fairly competent player, considering he was
originally a drummer and a campfire strummer, so he's pretty lame on
the technical end of the bass and his ear for it could use
improvement... I will be forwarding this straight to him... Thanks Craig |
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sluggo
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
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| Quote: | That brings up another processing question. Does the original poster
have gates for the drum mics?
|
I've borrowed a buddy's Audiologic MT-44 a couple of times and liked
the results, but I haven't bought one yet...
Any opinions on the MT-44? I thought I might make an offer to the guy
if you guys think it's good... I hear the Behr. gates are good entry
level units...
On this subject... I've read that you should always gate before
compression because comp. raises the noise floor, but on a small noisy
stage, with a drummer that might not always hit consistently, wouldn't
it make sense to compress the hits into a smaller envelope first so
that you can gate them more tightly afterwards? On stage, I find other
drum hits opening my gates all the time (kinda defeats the purpose...).
I've been able to achieve some really cool effects close gating snare
samples looping through my rig, but they are identical and perfectly
level. With a real human drummer this would seem impossible...
What about freq. dependent triggering for better gating of drums? I
asked another sound guy about this and he said it worked well for
recording, but not so good in more chaotic live situations... waste of
effort, or what?
TIA |
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sluggo
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
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Zigakly wrote:
| Quote: | You should approach the bass stage volume issue in the same way as guitar.
What you've done by getting them to use smaller cabs on tilt stands is get
the upper range of their sound firing at their ears. Same needs to be done
with bass. The upper end of bass guitar is around 1-2kHz, and most bassists
don't care about anything but feeling the oomf. In small rooms a decent
2x10" cabinet tilted like the guitar amps will give them what they really
need, then you can drive the subs and shake their nads far better than their
1x15" rigs sitting on the floor.
|
That's exactly what he's got; a big 1x15" pointing at the back of his
legs and on small stages, sitting about 18" in front of the kick (just
clears the boom, for cripes sake!). Like I said earlier, he didn't know
shite to begin with, bought the big amp that sounded great on it's own
and at the time, I didn't know enough to set him straight... Figured
we'd mic the amp, like the guitars until we were set straight on that
and got the DI...
You've obviously been through this all before... so, I'll be trying
your suggestions to see how it goes...
| Quote: | snip tons of good stuff!
I've had a cunt of a long night so I'll leave it there, but I bet my kick
drum main/sub split trick is your remedy, especailly since I bet the loud
bass amp is bleeding into the kick mic, compounding your problems, fixes
that too. To be continued...
|
Please do... and thanks! |
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sluggo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
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| Quote: | The Yorkville AP series amps are great amps. Rugged, hard working and
good sounding. They're 'old school' in design with a big heavy transformer.
The local company I worked with use a bunch of them in installed and
portable rigs.
|
Those things really hold their resale value, that's for sure. Even
here, in 'Yorkville Land' (southern Ontario, where they're built),
where we're rotten with them, the AP3000s still go for $800-$1100CDN
and most of them are pushing 20 years old!
| Quote: | Sounds like you've got the EQ on the monitors and none on the mains.
Still need to fix that. =)
|
I've got the 31 band on the mains, too... but, for now it's flat and
there for FB insurance only (which I never get through the mains
anyway, so far...) I haven't used it hardly at all to tune the PA or
for the room yet, because I have a real phobia with moving sliders on
an EQ before my ears can reliably tell me which one I should move...
Sure, I can move sliders and hear what happens, and I'm frequency
training my ears, even as we speak... I'm getting better, but it will
be a while before I can grab the freq. that I SHOULD grab and feel
confident that I'm making a change for the better... Plus, I truly
believe that you should fix as much as possible before resorting to EQ;
Starting with getting your muso's to use the best instruments they can
afford and then tuning them religiously (I couldn't believe the
improvement in musicality, the first time I heard a guitar tuned with a
strobe compared to a cheap pedal tuner!!). Then, fixing, through better
practices, as many of the sound system issues (like this one...) as you
can... That's part of the reason I left the EQ purchase till now; The
band bought the PA, so I had little say in that, but I've been buying
everything on the other end of the snake and I needed other stuff
first. Particularly compression, to tame the dynamics of this
promising, but unexperienced and undisciplined band... Overall, I was
getting passable results early on and have made steady progress,
quality wise... All through doing my homework and applying it, long
before I got my EQ... I've seen and heard some disasterous things done
with EQ by guys who think it's a panacea... Having said that, the
bottom end thing is tasking me and after I've tried isolating the subs
and a few other things, I think I will be approaching that point where
system EQing is called for...
| Quote: | As to the compression, be careful. Compression can cause MORE problems
with feedback.
|
Starting to notice this and have dealt with it well, so far...
| Quote: | Also, you don't want to run compression on anything you're sending to the monitors.
|
Check... I've also started to use spare dry channels to send monitors
as opposed to sending them from the channel with the comp. inserted on
it...
| Quote: | Using only one sub will eliminate the interference that creates the
"power alley." You'll also get less output, but that can be compensated for
by using the boundry loading to effectively increase the output of the one
sub you'r running. Each boundry the sub is near will increase the output by
3db. Put it on the floor and you're +3, slide it over to the wall and now
you're +6. Shove it into a corner and you get +9.
|
This is good to know and I'd noticed the effect... In my case, I simply
boosted the single sub when I removed the second one, since I seemed to
have lots of balls left in it and the amp driving it...
| Quote: | If you want to run the subs off an aux, you'll need an EQ and
crossover channel for that in adition to the ones already used for
the mains.
Got 'em... But, I think I'd prefer the pan pot option as it would allow
fast on the fly experimentation; just pan to center and I've got the
equivilent of my original set up back, right?
True, though it could be a little confusing to another person trying to
operate your rig.
|
Bite your tongue ;-)
Thanks again, Mike |
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Ron Capik
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
|
|
sluggo wrote:
| Quote: | ...snip..
And you'll want to fine tune every time you go back to that room because
things like temperature, humidity and speaker placements will be
slightly different each time.
I understand that...
I guess I should have been more general and said "adjust for and save a
program for each room"
As you tweak the system/DSP for each room, I assume you can update the
saved settings... This makes me wonder; is it worthwhile to have 2 or
even 3 saved programs per room? One for when it's nearly empty, one for
when it's crowded and one for packed solid? Or is this just silly?
Considering how much the sound changes under these different
conditions, it would seem a plausible solution... combined with fine
tuning by ear, of course =)
|
Not to directly answer your question, what I tend to do is take notes and
watch trends. ...but then, I'm odd that way. So save 3 room settings and
see if they hold up next time. It can't hurt, unless you're running low on
memory space. You may find, on a dry winter day, you need to roll off
starting at 8k or on a humid summer day boost a few dB at 10k, ...or
some such. Do try to work out a system and procedure and stick to it.
Review and revise your procedures as needed, as you learn.
Later...
Ron Capik
-- |
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sluggo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Cleaning up the bottom end... |
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|
Andy Hart wrote:
Me, too...
Thanks, Andy... |
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