| Author |
Message |
Scott Gardner
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 04:26:22 -0500, bob36swmla@webtv.net (bob wald)
wrote:
| Quote: | all i can say is this post is stupid....the reason all those listed
details are very good is because if they were bad they wouldnt be
listed.i never buy a amp/stereo without knowing s/n, wow/flutter
etc.....
cd responses are different thats why they list them.
|
You're exactly the type of uneducated consumer that the marketing
types are going for. Of course different CD players have different
frequency responses - the point is, ALL of the various CD players have
frequency responses that cover the ENTIRE RANGE of human hearing. It
literally makes NO difference whether the range is 10Hz-20kHz or 5Hz
to 25kHz - no one can hear the difference.
Likewise with wow & flutter. Every single CD player ever made, from
any manufacturer, has had wow & flutter that was too low to be
measured, even with laboratory equipment. So why do they continue to
list it in their specs? Only because it sound cool to be able to say
that it's "unmeasurable".
Thirty or forty years ago, there were amplifiers that had S/N ratios
down in the 30's. It was entirely possible that you could tell a
difference between a S/N ratio of 30 dB and a S/N ratio of 40 dB, so
if you had a very high S/N ratio, it was worthwhile to advertise that
fact.
But once you get up to 80 dB (or even lower than that), the
differences from increasing the S/N ratio are completely inaudible,
and all components these days are at least up around 80 dB or higher.
There's no way to hear the difference between ratios of 85 dB, 95 dB,
and 105 dB, but the marketing types still insist on listing it in
their specs because they know some mouthbreathing consumer will think
"102 dB is better than 95 dB, so I'll buy amp "A" instead of amp "B".
To use another example from the automotive industry, some car
companies advertise the fact that their cars have a clearcoat over the
paint, even though EVERY CAR made for at least the last 25 years has
had a basecoat/clearcoat paint on it. The marketing types are hoping
that some stupid potential buyer will assume that all of the other
brands therefore DON'T have a clearcoat since they didn't mention it
in THEIR sales brochure, and they'll buy from the company that
advertised it, even though EVERYONE uses clearcoat these days.
The differences in electronics design that could TRULY make one unit
sound/behave differently from another unit are too complicated to
explain to the average consumer using something as simple as a spec
chart on the back of the package, so instead, the manufacturers
continue to publish the same meaningless specs over and over again.
--
Scott Gardner
"After things go from bad to worse, the cycle will repeat itself."
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bob wald
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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first, do you know you not only hear bass you feel it....lol
dohhh...
i cant keep correcting you on each thing you say.itll take me too long.
sorry. |
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Scott Gardner
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:12:53 -0500, bob36swmla@webtv.net (bob wald)
wrote:
| Quote: | first, do you know you not only hear bass you feel it....lol
dohhh...
i cant keep correcting you on each thing you say.itll take me too long.
sorry.
|
I know that you hear bass as well as feel it, but that doesn't change
the fact that you can't tell the difference between a CD player with a
frequency response that "only" extends down to 20 Hz and one that goes
down to 5 Hz.
First of all, a CD player that "only" goes down to 10 or 20 Hz will
still play a 5 Hz "note" - it will just be attenuated more by the
frequency roll-off.
Second, you have to look at the entire response specification, not
just the frequency range. A CD player with a range of 20Hz-20kHz
**plus or minus 1 dB** will probably have a wider overall frequency
response than another player that has a spec of 5Hz-30kHz **plus or
minus 3 dB**. You could probably truthfully advertise ANY CD player
as having a frequency response of 1 Hz to 30 kHz, if you increased the
allowable attenuation limit to 30 dB or so.
Lastly, there's no *musical* content in any song that goes down to 5
or 10 Hz. Even if the musicians were able to play a note that low,
it's going to be lost anyway because of the low-end roll-off of the
microphones and the mastering equipment. So, unless you spend your
time in your car masturbating to low-frequency computer-generated test
tones, we're back to that whole "inaudible differences" point.
--
Scott Gardner
"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's sometimes hard to remember that your original mission was to drain the swamp." |
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Matt Ion
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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Scott Gardner wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:12:53 -0500, bob36swmla@webtv.net (bob wald)
wrote:
first, do you know you not only hear bass you feel it....lol
dohhh...
i cant keep correcting you on each thing you say.itll take me too long.
sorry.
I know that you hear bass as well as feel it, but that doesn't change
the fact that you can't tell the difference between a CD player with a
frequency response that "only" extends down to 20 Hz and one that goes
down to 5 Hz.
First of all, a CD player that "only" goes down to 10 or 20 Hz will
still play a 5 Hz "note" - it will just be attenuated more by the
frequency roll-off.
Second, you have to look at the entire response specification, not
just the frequency range. A CD player with a range of 20Hz-20kHz
**plus or minus 1 dB** will probably have a wider overall frequency
response than another player that has a spec of 5Hz-30kHz **plus or
minus 3 dB**. You could probably truthfully advertise ANY CD player
as having a frequency response of 1 Hz to 30 kHz, if you increased the
allowable attenuation limit to 30 dB or so.
Lastly, there's no *musical* content in any song that goes down to 5
or 10 Hz. Even if the musicians were able to play a note that low,
it's going to be lost anyway because of the low-end roll-off of the
microphones and the mastering equipment. So, unless you spend your
time in your car masturbating to low-frequency computer-generated test
tones, we're back to that whole "inaudible differences" point.
|
Not to mention, most speaker systems wouldn't reproduce notes that low
even if they were recorded (you'd need about a 30" sub to crank out 20Hz
at any decent efficiency).
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Scott Gardner
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:17 pm Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:53:53 GMT, Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Scott Gardner wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:12:53 -0500, bob36swmla@webtv.net (bob wald)
wrote:
first, do you know you not only hear bass you feel it....lol
dohhh...
i cant keep correcting you on each thing you say.itll take me too long.
sorry.
I know that you hear bass as well as feel it, but that doesn't change
the fact that you can't tell the difference between a CD player with a
frequency response that "only" extends down to 20 Hz and one that goes
down to 5 Hz.
First of all, a CD player that "only" goes down to 10 or 20 Hz will
still play a 5 Hz "note" - it will just be attenuated more by the
frequency roll-off.
Second, you have to look at the entire response specification, not
just the frequency range. A CD player with a range of 20Hz-20kHz
**plus or minus 1 dB** will probably have a wider overall frequency
response than another player that has a spec of 5Hz-30kHz **plus or
minus 3 dB**. You could probably truthfully advertise ANY CD player
as having a frequency response of 1 Hz to 30 kHz, if you increased the
allowable attenuation limit to 30 dB or so.
Lastly, there's no *musical* content in any song that goes down to 5
or 10 Hz. Even if the musicians were able to play a note that low,
it's going to be lost anyway because of the low-end roll-off of the
microphones and the mastering equipment. So, unless you spend your
time in your car masturbating to low-frequency computer-generated test
tones, we're back to that whole "inaudible differences" point.
Not to mention, most speaker systems wouldn't reproduce notes that low
even if they were recorded (you'd need about a 30" sub to crank out 20Hz
at any decent efficiency).
|
Plus, the GOBS of amplifier power it takes to accurately reproduce
extremely low (20 HZ and below) frequencies at a loud volume.
I think it's hilarious that Bob is claiming it's so important for CD
players to have a frequency response that goes down to 20 Hz or below,
when for years, audio engineers have included subsonic filters in
their equipment for the sole purpose of keeping those frequencies OUT
of the signal. After all, when it comes to music, the very lowest
note on a bass guitar is about 41Hz, and a pipe organ with a 32-foot
pedal stop *might* get down to 17Hz or so. Almost no music uses those
notes, and anything lower than that is just for the weenies and their
computer-synthesized "bass discs" to show off with - they're not
music.
--
Scott Gardner
"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session." (Judge Gideon J. Tucker, 1866.)" |
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bob wald
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:34 pm Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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i didnt say it was important...you said there was no difference.from
below 20 to above.... |
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GregS
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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In article <b35lk15dgpkg3rtl51qhvv1m2eloutqkk5@4ax.com>, Scott Gardner <gardners14@cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:12:53 -0500, bob36swmla@webtv.net (bob wald)
wrote:
first, do you know you not only hear bass you feel it....lol
dohhh...
i cant keep correcting you on each thing you say.itll take me too long.
sorry.
I know that you hear bass as well as feel it, but that doesn't change
the fact that you can't tell the difference between a CD player with a
frequency response that "only" extends down to 20 Hz and one that goes
down to 5 Hz.
First of all, a CD player that "only" goes down to 10 or 20 Hz will
still play a 5 Hz "note" - it will just be attenuated more by the
frequency roll-off.
Second, you have to look at the entire response specification, not
just the frequency range. A CD player with a range of 20Hz-20kHz
**plus or minus 1 dB** will probably have a wider overall frequency
response than another player that has a spec of 5Hz-30kHz **plus or
minus 3 dB**. You could probably truthfully advertise ANY CD player
as having a frequency response of 1 Hz to 30 kHz, if you increased the
allowable attenuation limit to 30 dB or so.
Lastly, there's no *musical* content in any song that goes down to 5
or 10 Hz. Even if the musicians were able to play a note that low,
it's going to be lost anyway because of the low-end roll-off of the
microphones and the mastering equipment. So, unless you spend your
time in your car masturbating to low-frequency computer-generated test
tones, we're back to that whole "inaudible differences" point.
|
Well I guess in a live performance, the musicians can be jumping around creating
floor movements felt, so its really part of the musical experiance, 5 Hz.
greg |
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bob wald
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:37 am Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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is the jumping around part of the music itself? just lower notes????
idiot... |
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MZ
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:03 am Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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"bob wald" <bob36swmla@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14636-434A33BE-321@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net...
| Quote: | all i can say is this post is stupid....the reason all those listed
details are very good is because if they were bad they wouldnt be
listed.
|
Profound. |
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Scott Gardner
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:36 am Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:34:05 -0500, bob36swmla@webtv.net (bob wald)
wrote:
| Quote: | i didnt say it was important...you said there was no difference.from
below 20 to above....
|
No audible difference, no. If you want to base your component choices
on differences that you can only detect with an oscilloscope, you go
right ahead.
--
Scott Gardner
"The most fundamental law of wartime negotiations; you negotiate with the enemy with your knee in his chest and your knife at his throat. " |
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Chris Mullins
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:43 am Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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i hear the new LMT sub from i think...soundsplinter will go quite low,
everyone is amazed with the prototype last time i heard. but i'm still on
your side. i know they recommend like a 17hz tuning or something like that,
the response curve is unreal but i'd like to actually hear it to see if its
as good as they claim.
"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:RUx2f.150980$tl2.35719@pd7tw3no...
| Quote: | Scott Gardner wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:12:53 -0500, bob36swmla@webtv.net (bob wald)
wrote:
first, do you know you not only hear bass you feel it....lol
dohhh...
i cant keep correcting you on each thing you say.itll take me too long.
sorry.
I know that you hear bass as well as feel it, but that doesn't change
the fact that you can't tell the difference between a CD player with a
frequency response that "only" extends down to 20 Hz and one that goes
down to 5 Hz.
First of all, a CD player that "only" goes down to 10 or 20 Hz will
still play a 5 Hz "note" - it will just be attenuated more by the
frequency roll-off. Second, you have to look at the entire response
specification, not
just the frequency range. A CD player with a range of 20Hz-20kHz
**plus or minus 1 dB** will probably have a wider overall frequency
response than another player that has a spec of 5Hz-30kHz **plus or
minus 3 dB**. You could probably truthfully advertise ANY CD player
as having a frequency response of 1 Hz to 30 kHz, if you increased the
allowable attenuation limit to 30 dB or so.
Lastly, there's no *musical* content in any song that goes down to 5
or 10 Hz. Even if the musicians were able to play a note that low,
it's going to be lost anyway because of the low-end roll-off of the
microphones and the mastering equipment. So, unless you spend your
time in your car masturbating to low-frequency computer-generated test
tones, we're back to that whole "inaudible differences" point.
Not to mention, most speaker systems wouldn't reproduce notes that low
even if they were recorded (you'd need about a 30" sub to crank out 20Hz
at any decent efficiency).
---
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Matt Ion
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:10 am Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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Scott Gardner wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:34:05 -0500, bob36swmla@webtv.net (bob wald)
wrote:
i didnt say it was important...you said there was no difference.from
below 20 to above....
No audible difference, no. If you want to base your component choices
on differences that you can only detect with an oscilloscope, you go
right ahead.
[/quote]
Bahahahaahah!
Funny, this reminds me of an article on a similar subject in some stereo
mag years ago... the author coined the term, "DC-to-light frequency
response". I always liked that one.... :)
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Matt Ion
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:11 am Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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MZ wrote:
[quote]"bob wald" <bob36swmla@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14636-434A33BE-321@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net...
all i can say is this post is stupid....the reason all those listed
details are very good is because if they were bad they wouldnt be
listed.
Profound.
[/quote]
Confound.
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KaeZoo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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|
"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:PPH2f.156457$tl2.1750@pd7tw3no...
[quote]MZ wrote:
"bob wald" <bob36swmla@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14636-434A33BE-321@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net...
all i can say is this post is stupid....the reason all those listed
details are very good is because if they were bad they wouldnt be
listed.
Profound.
Confound.
No, no. He must be right. They wouldn't let him post on the Internet if he[/quote]
wasn't right. |
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No-one
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject:
Re: Specs that I'd like to see manufacturers STOP advertisin |
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In article <20051009174843.A22346@mdz.no-ip.org>, MZ <mark@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
[quote]
What else do we need to know? The class? Ok, they're all Class B if
they're not D.
[/quote]
Really? and how about class A,E,T,X |
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