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Steve King
Guest
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 Posted:
Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:40 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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"Larry J." <usenet2@DE.LETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96E77D881F59Cthefrogprince@68.6.19.6...
| Quote: | Waiving the right to remain silent, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> said:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 20:05:07 GMT, "Larry J."
usenet2@DE.LETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote:
Waiving the right to remain silent, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> said:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5
figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this
morning.
Less than $1,000 for a finished, ten-minute video..?
No ,no, no. Sorry, my mind is in a dozen places today.
Well under 10k. There you go.
And thanks for the head-up on that.
Well, many producers sill swear by the tried and true, $1,000 per
finished minute, as a general rule.
|
The $1K per minute may be close as an average, when a great variety of
routine corporate jobs are taken into consideration. But it often doesn't
help for a specific job. My jobs vary too much to have a 'rule of thumb'
that stands up. Travel comes to mind among things that can dramatically
affect the budget. A single shot can sometime make a video and at the same
time knock the $1k per minute formula on its ear: an aerial, waiting all day
for the CEO to break free for fifteen minutes, a large lighting setup for a
product shot, car rigs, and on and on. Of course, there is the video that
simply documents an event, often a static shot that may run for thirty
minutes or an hour, that kicks the formula in the other direction. That's
why my budget form, added to and noodled over for a few years, helps me get
specific about expected costs in people, time, and materials. Reasonable
mark-ups are built into the spread sheet. It provides confidence and
discipline and insures a profit barring catastrophe.
Steve King
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P.C. Ford
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:04 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 20:24:28 GMT, "Steve Guidry"
I want to thank both Steves that answered my questions! You guys took
the time to answer my question thoughtfully. And your answers made
sense to me. I'll save your responses!
We have no problem doing this stuff; the cameraman, director and
editor together have about 60 years experience between them. It's a
joy to work with them. The producer (that's me) is the weak link, but
you have both helped a lot.
Thanks again! |
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nobody special
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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The 1 k per finished minute thing as a rule of thumb has been outdated
since the late 80's. That it sometimes still works out to that figure
is more by chance than design. It was predicated on a much smaller
universe of camera technology options and more restricted access to
editing, and makes certain assumptions that may not be the case today.
With today's tools, a guy who really knew his business could do that
1980's job for $50 per finished minute and yet deiver higher quality.
Conversely, the lowered barriers to entry mean any guy with two grand
can be a "player" in terms of the gear, but may not have the skills and
discipline to pull off the complete production, making expensive
mistakes that double the cost and the timeline for completion. |
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Steve King
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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"nobody special" <msu1049321@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1128782172.911737.323850@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | The 1 k per finished minute thing as a rule of thumb has been outdated
since the late 80's. That it sometimes still works out to that figure
is more by chance than design. It was predicated on a much smaller
universe of camera technology options and more restricted access to
editing, and makes certain assumptions that may not be the case today.
With today's tools, a guy who really knew his business could do that
1980's job for $50 per finished minute and yet deiver higher quality.
Conversely, the lowered barriers to entry mean any guy with two grand
can be a "player" in terms of the gear, but may not have the skills and
discipline to pull off the complete production, making expensive
mistakes that double the cost and the timeline for completion.
|
What sort of job did you have in mind that could be done for $50 per minute?
Steve King |
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nobody special
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:25 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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I'm saying, Steve, that back in the 80's, when puppies were the oldest
animal, there were technological and financial barriers to entry, so
lots of bad ideas for projects never got past the inquiry stage. These
days, all manner of cr@p productions are getting made, for the same
reason a dog licks it's own... well, you get the rest of that. I swear,
the next time a client asks me to do a streaming video of them reading
an instruction manual out loud, and calling it "training", I will hit
them upside the head with a gobo arm....
At the same time, clients with no background order up projects with
ambitious goals and a paltry budget, because "the cameras are so cheap
now". Any smart video pro wouldn't want to touch it, but now there's
always somebody out there with a camcorder and MovieShaker saying he
can do it for beans, "hey, Bill in Accounting has a firewire card on
his PC, HE can do it!" - and they go for it, because they don't
really know...
A real pro, an experienced writer-producer-editor, could use these
low-cost tools effectively, and generate something better than a
full-boat online A/B linear suite from the 80's could hope to do,
without a lot of the time and expense of 1980's workflow. He'd be
working solo, where back then it would have been a 2-3 man job. He
COULD deliver that 1k project, say, a 30-second spot, or a simple
five-minute product demo, for far, far less. Hopefully, he's converting
the difference to more profit somewhere. |
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Steve King
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:27 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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"nobody special" <msu1049321@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1128806741.574014.228960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I'm saying, Steve, that back in the 80's, when puppies were the oldest
animal, there were technological and financial barriers to entry, so
lots of bad ideas for projects never got past the inquiry stage. These
days, all manner of cr@p productions are getting made, for the same
reason a dog licks it's own... well, you get the rest of that. I swear,
the next time a client asks me to do a streaming video of them reading
an instruction manual out loud, and calling it "training", I will hit
them upside the head with a gobo arm....
At the same time, clients with no background order up projects with
ambitious goals and a paltry budget, because "the cameras are so cheap
now". Any smart video pro wouldn't want to touch it, but now there's
always somebody out there with a camcorder and MovieShaker saying he
can do it for beans, "hey, Bill in Accounting has a firewire card on
his PC, HE can do it!" - and they go for it, because they don't
really know...
A real pro, an experienced writer-producer-editor, could use these
low-cost tools effectively, and generate something better than a
full-boat online A/B linear suite from the 80's could hope to do,
without a lot of the time and expense of 1980's workflow. He'd be
working solo, where back then it would have been a 2-3 man job. He
COULD deliver that 1k project, say, a 30-second spot, or a simple
five-minute product demo, for far, far less. Hopefully, he's converting
the difference to more profit somewhere.
|
If you are saying that it is possible for a skilled video one-man-band with
a $1k camera and $2k in editing computer/software to whack together a
passable 30 second spot for a local merchant between 9 AM and 5 PM, I agree.
(I've done it myself for some public service spots done pro bono.) It is
true that the investment required for equipment has dropped precipitously
since the 80s. What has not dropped, has in fact escalated dramatically, is
everything else: insurance, real estate (own or rent), labor,
transportation, etc. In other words, if one is operating a business, the
cost of production has not dropped; the costs just fall in different columns
on the spread sheet. I don't believe that hobbyists will ever be much of a
threat.
I have been fortunate, I guess. I do not get requests from clients for dirt
cheap videos. I have had clients try to do their own. It was really good
for my business, because the stories of the embarrassing videos that
resulted tend to get around and stop the trend in its tracks. On the other
hand, I have heard from friends who do event video --- meetings, speeches,
etc. --- who say that they are getting a lot of downward pressure on their
day-rates. I have one client that used to have an in-house video
department. When that department was axed, some of their (internal) clients
thought that they were going to find their production costs were going to be
much less than the chargebacks they were used to. They did find a few
people that agreed to low-ball budgets. I guess they didn't work out so
well, because I'm still doing work there, as I did for the in-house
department, and at rates that are actually higher than I used to charge,
since I don't have an in-house producer running interference for me.
When I get price resistance, I just open up my spread sheet and go over it
point by point with them. "Let's see where we can cut," I say. "We might
do the CEO interview with available office lighting. Of course, he will look
a little washed out and sickly. Will he notice? Or mind?" I offer to let
them supply such things as graphics, scriptwriting, and set design and
construction. If they take me up on it, which has only happened once, I
supply a written specification for what is needed. (In the one case, the
client's in-house graphics person turned down the job;-))) When they see
all the line-items that go into a video production, they weary of the
process pretty quick.
Of course, my point of viewed is skewed. My time is worth more than it was
20 years ago. A lot more. Doesn't make much differences that the cameras
cost a tenth as much.
Steve King |
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nobody special
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:41 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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I think we agree more than disagree on this topic.
God save me from clients that think they know how to write a script. |
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Steve King
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:41 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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"nobody special" <msu1049321@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1128825753.198247.66350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I think we agree more than disagree on this topic.
God save me from clients that think they know how to write a script.
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That's the truth.
Steve King |
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Steve Guidry
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:17 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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In my experience, how much you charges, and whether or not you believe that
$1k per minute is a viable rate or not is more a reflection of your customer
base than your equipment list or even your skill set. Other factors like
the length of time you've been in business and how long you've been in your
particular market, and your age seem to play a part as well.
Here's what I mean :
If you're a seasoned pro, who has paid your dues, then you're more likely to
be able to grow or migrate your customer base up to that level. You've
built a list of customers who keep coming back because of the quality your
work represents. You and your customers speak the same lingo, and are
generally comfortable with each other's work styles. You're a "known
quantity" to them.
On the other hand, if you're fairly new, and just getting your customer base
established, then you're likely to think that guys like King, Jandro, Davis
(and your truly) are dinosaurs with an outdated view of what things should
cost. You're selling cost to your customers because that's what you've got
to sell. Heck, I've been there, done that. It _does_ work, but it's a
short-term business plan. As soon as you can do so, you're best advised to
shed all those leaches who want something for nothing. Refer them to your
newbie competitor, and try to poach a high-value customer or two from one of
us.
It's the way of the biz : everyone starts out competing on price, and ends
up competing on value.
"nobody special" <msu1049321@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1128806741.574014.228960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I'm saying, Steve, that back in the 80's, when puppies were the oldest
animal, there were technological and financial barriers to entry, so
lots of bad ideas for projects never got past the inquiry stage. These
days, all manner of cr@p productions are getting made, for the same
reason a dog licks it's own... well, you get the rest of that. I swear,
the next time a client asks me to do a streaming video of them reading
an instruction manual out loud, and calling it "training", I will hit
them upside the head with a gobo arm....
At the same time, clients with no background order up projects with
ambitious goals and a paltry budget, because "the cameras are so cheap
now". Any smart video pro wouldn't want to touch it, but now there's
always somebody out there with a camcorder and MovieShaker saying he
can do it for beans, "hey, Bill in Accounting has a firewire card on
his PC, HE can do it!" - and they go for it, because they don't
really know...
A real pro, an experienced writer-producer-editor, could use these
low-cost tools effectively, and generate something better than a
full-boat online A/B linear suite from the 80's could hope to do,
without a lot of the time and expense of 1980's workflow. He'd be
working solo, where back then it would have been a 2-3 man job. He
COULD deliver that 1k project, say, a 30-second spot, or a simple
five-minute product demo, for far, far less. Hopefully, he's converting
the difference to more profit somewhere.
|
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Steve King
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:48 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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"Steve Guidry" <steveguidry@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5UA2f.12739$QE1.6636@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| Quote: | In my experience, how much you charges, and whether or not you believe
that
$1k per minute is a viable rate or not is more a reflection of your
customer
base than your equipment list or even your skill set. Other factors like
the length of time you've been in business and how long you've been in
your
particular market, and your age seem to play a part as well.
Here's what I mean :
If you're a seasoned pro, who has paid your dues, then you're more likely
to
be able to grow or migrate your customer base up to that level. You've
built a list of customers who keep coming back because of the quality your
work represents. You and your customers speak the same lingo, and are
generally comfortable with each other's work styles. You're a "known
quantity" to them.
On the other hand, if you're fairly new, and just getting your customer
base
established, then you're likely to think that guys like King, Jandro,
Davis
(and your truly) are dinosaurs with an outdated view of what things should
cost. You're selling cost to your customers because that's what you've
got
to sell. Heck, I've been there, done that. It _does_ work, but it's a
short-term business plan. As soon as you can do so, you're best advised
to
shed all those leaches who want something for nothing. Refer them to your
newbie competitor, and try to poach a high-value customer or two from one
of
us.
It's the way of the biz : everyone starts out competing on price, and
ends
up competing on value.
|
I agree. That is the way it goes for most of us. I've been fortunate to
start a couple of enterprises on the shoulders of good clients who were
aware of my work in associated fields, so I didn't have to low bid as much
as might have had to otherwise. This has been an interesting thread--to see
how others look at the business side of the business.
Steve King |
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Seattle Eric
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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What Steve G. says-- it is VERY good advice.
Steve Guidry wrote:
[quote]In my experience, the $1k per minute figure falls apart as projects get
longer. That's because it usually takes comparatively less additional
resources to produce the longer videos. <ETC[/quote] |
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Seattle Eric
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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Larry J. wrote:
[quote]Well, many producers sill swear by the tried and true, $1,000 per
finished minute, as a general rule.
[/quote]
Many producers don't think very well. I'd say $1,000+/minute, UP TO
FIFTEEN MINUTES. After that, it starts dropping off. |
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Seattle Eric
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:25 pm Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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Steve King wrote:
[quote]What sort of job did you have in mind that could be done for $50 per minute?
[/quote]
Heh. I dunno what the OP was talking about, but obviously there's a
threshold cost: $1K+ just to leave the office. |
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Larry J.
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:47 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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Waiving the right to remain silent, Seattle Eric
<noone@erehwon.gov> said:
[quote]Larry J. wrote:
Well, many producers sill swear by the tried and true, $1,000
per finished minute, as a general rule.
Many producers don't think very well. I'd say $1,000+/minute,
UP TO FIFTEEN MINUTES. After that, it starts dropping off.
[/quote]
True. Also, graphics-laden videos should cost less.
--
Larry Jandro
Video Engineering & Equipment Rentals
Scottsdale, Arizona, USA
[Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to reply] |
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David McCall
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:03 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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"Larry J." <usenet2@DE.LETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96EC8213A7F34thefrogprince@68.6.19.6...
[quote]Waiving the right to remain silent, Seattle Eric
noone@erehwon.gov> said:
Larry J. wrote:
Well, many producers sill swear by the tried and true, $1,000
per finished minute, as a general rule.
Many producers don't think very well. I'd say $1,000+/minute,
UP TO FIFTEEN MINUTES. After that, it starts dropping off.
True. Also, graphics-laden videos should cost less.
Sure $1000 a minute sounds about right.[/quote]
That's what we were using as a starting point in 1967 :-)
What century are we in?
David |
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