| Author |
Message |
P.C. Ford
Guest
|
 Posted:
Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject:
Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
Ok, I'm willing to take any abuse I get for asking this question.
(I've read past posts in this regard.) But I press on:
We have been asked to produce two 30 minute videos for a large
company. We have worked with them in the past. We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures. They
are fine folks to work with.
Here are the main points:
1. One video will be a demonstration of a new product. The other will
be a tutorial on its use.
2. They will provide script. They prepared the script last time and
did a good job, though project went long.
3. Shooting will be in one room.
4. There will be two actors in each video. (Though not the same
people, as I understand it.
5. We will provide director, 1 cameraman with lights and other support
eqwuipment, editor and production assistant. I will do some assistant
editing and production management/misc. wrangling.
6. Provide about 10 DVDs
7. There will have to be a bit of video razzle-dazzle to this or it
will be dry as dust.
8. Two days of "practice"/rehearsal. One day of shooting.
9. Delivery in about 30 days after shoot.
10. I have minimal overhead to support at this point.
I know the old cliche' saws about industrial project cost. (ie. $1k
and minute and up) However, if the cost for help mentioned above is
porportional to costs in the original project, I can't see charging
anything approaching $1k per minute.
Your comments?
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P.C. Ford
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:00 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford <meoh@mouse-potato.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures.
|
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this morning.
Oh, should have added, there was happiness all 'round with the
project.
thanks!
> |
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Larry J.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:05 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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|
Waiving the right to remain silent, P.C. Ford
<meoh@mouse-potato.com> said:
| Quote: | On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this
morning.
|
Less than $1,000 for a finished, ten-minute video..?
--
Larry Jandro
Video Engineering & Equipment Rentals
Scottsdale, Arizona, USA
[Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to reply] |
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P.C. Ford
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:12 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 20:05:07 GMT, "Larry J."
<usenet2@DE.LETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Waiving the right to remain silent, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> said:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this
morning.
Less than $1,000 for a finished, ten-minute video..?
|
No ,no, no. Sorry, my mind is in a dozen places today.
Well under 10k. There you go.
And thanks for the head-up on that. |
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Steve King
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:14 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
"P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:2h88k1dbni9dt7thgqfv07bqkp1f2jhphi@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford <meoh@mouse-potato.com
wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this morning.
Oh, should have added, there was happiness all 'round with the
project.
thanks!
|
You need a video budget form. Otherwise you will forget to charge for a lot
of materials, services, and time. Here are a couple to look at:
http://www.jimzura.com/OtherBudgetSample3.htm
http://raven.ubalt.edu/departments/corpcom/courses/simon/projmgmtII/forms/videoBudget.pdf
And, neither of these is as comprehensive as the one I use.
Selling that 10 minute video for less than a $100 per minute sure left you
in bind as far as charging anything like a fair price.
Steve King |
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| Back to top |
|
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Steve Guidry
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:24 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
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|
Since you have a track record with them, maybe they trust you enough to do
it on a unit cost basis. here's how I'd pitch it :
$ 500 per day of rehearsing
$1250 per day of shooting.
$150 per hour of editing
$ 50 per hour for scripting and planning meetings.
They do more, or do their part more efficiently they pay less. They make
you do re-edits or re-shoots, they know in advance the unit costs.
That's just my $.02 . . .
Steve
"P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:gt58k1dnbg3j00e05idrfd6pnf7rq0t0rl@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
Ok, I'm willing to take any abuse I get for asking this question.
(I've read past posts in this regard.) But I press on:
We have been asked to produce two 30 minute videos for a large
company. We have worked with them in the past. We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures. They
are fine folks to work with.
Here are the main points:
1. One video will be a demonstration of a new product. The other will
be a tutorial on its use.
2. They will provide script. They prepared the script last time and
did a good job, though project went long.
3. Shooting will be in one room.
4. There will be two actors in each video. (Though not the same
people, as I understand it.
5. We will provide director, 1 cameraman with lights and other support
eqwuipment, editor and production assistant. I will do some assistant
editing and production management/misc. wrangling.
6. Provide about 10 DVDs
7. There will have to be a bit of video razzle-dazzle to this or it
will be dry as dust.
8. Two days of "practice"/rehearsal. One day of shooting.
9. Delivery in about 30 days after shoot.
10. I have minimal overhead to support at this point.
I know the old cliche' saws about industrial project cost. (ie. $1k
and minute and up) However, if the cost for help mentioned above is
porportional to costs in the original project, I can't see charging
anything approaching $1k per minute.
Your comments?
|
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| Back to top |
|
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Steve Guidry
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:24 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
My thoughts exactly.
I don't get off the dime for that . . .
Steve
"Larry J." <usenet2@DE.LETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96E6851F9D023thefrogprince@68.6.19.6...
| Quote: | Waiving the right to remain silent, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> said:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this
morning.
Less than $1,000 for a finished, ten-minute video..?
--
Larry Jandro
Video Engineering & Equipment Rentals
Scottsdale, Arizona, USA
[Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to reply] |
|
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P.C. Ford
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:50 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:14:43 -0500, "Steve King"
<steveSPAMBLOCK@stevekingSPAMBLOCK.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Selling that 10 minute video for less than a $100 per minute sure left you
in bind as far as charging anything like a fair price.
|
Like I said in a post above I screwed up in stating the cost for the
first piece. To be clear...it was well under $10,000.
I couldn't afford to do much for under 1k |
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P.C. Ford
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:29 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:14:43 -0500, "Steve King"
<steveSPAMBLOCK@stevekingSPAMBLOCK.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:2h88k1dbni9dt7thgqfv07bqkp1f2jhphi@4ax.com...
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford <meoh@mouse-potato.com
wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this morning.
Oh, should have added, there was happiness all 'round with the
project.
thanks!
You need a video budget form. Otherwise you will forget to charge for a lot
of materials, services, and time. Here are a couple to look at:
http://www.jimzura.com/OtherBudgetSample3.htm
http://raven.ubalt.edu/departments/corpcom/courses/simon/projmgmtII/forms/videoBudget.pdf
And, neither of these is as comprehensive as the one I use.
Selling that 10 minute video for less than a $100 per minute sure left you
in bind as far as charging anything like a fair price.
|
thanks, good, useable info on both urls. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Steve King
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
"P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:6tk8k1diof77d98g1utt4op4p3nlsftiib@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:14:43 -0500, "Steve King"
steveSPAMBLOCK@stevekingSPAMBLOCK.net> wrote:
"P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:2h88k1dbni9dt7thgqfv07bqkp1f2jhphi@4ax.com...
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford <meoh@mouse-potato.com
wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this morning.
Oh, should have added, there was happiness all 'round with the
project.
thanks!
You need a video budget form. Otherwise you will forget to charge for a
lot
of materials, services, and time. Here are a couple to look at:
http://www.jimzura.com/OtherBudgetSample3.htm
http://raven.ubalt.edu/departments/corpcom/courses/simon/projmgmtII/forms/videoBudget.pdf
And, neither of these is as comprehensive as the one I use.
Selling that 10 minute video for less than a $100 per minute sure left you
in bind as far as charging anything like a fair price.
thanks, good, useable info on both urls.
|
What a relief!! That you didn't bill the $1K that I thought you meant. You
may find an even better budget form. I use a budget form to help me think
through a project in the proposal preparation stage. Then I go back to it
frequently as the project becomes better defined. It is still a good tool
to make sure I am taking into consideration all of the ways the project will
be affected in pre-production, production, and post. It is too easy to
forget stuff and incur costs of time, goods, and services that nickle and
dime your reasonable and legitimate profits away.
Steve King |
|
| Back to top |
|
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P.C. Ford
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:59 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:31:45 -0500, "Steve King"
<steveSPAMBLOCK@stevekingSPAMBLOCK.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:6tk8k1diof77d98g1utt4op4p3nlsftiib@4ax.com...
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:14:43 -0500, "Steve King"
steveSPAMBLOCK@stevekingSPAMBLOCK.net> wrote:
"P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:2h88k1dbni9dt7thgqfv07bqkp1f2jhphi@4ax.com...
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford <meoh@mouse-potato.com
wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this morning.
Oh, should have added, there was happiness all 'round with the
project.
thanks!
You need a video budget form. Otherwise you will forget to charge for a
lot
of materials, services, and time. Here are a couple to look at:
http://www.jimzura.com/OtherBudgetSample3.htm
http://raven.ubalt.edu/departments/corpcom/courses/simon/projmgmtII/forms/videoBudget.pdf
And, neither of these is as comprehensive as the one I use.
Selling that 10 minute video for less than a $100 per minute sure left you
in bind as far as charging anything like a fair price.
thanks, good, useable info on both urls.
What a relief!! That you didn't bill the $1K that I thought you meant. You
may find an even better budget form. I use a budget form to help me think
through a project in the proposal preparation stage. Then I go back to it
frequently as the project becomes better defined. It is still a good tool
to make sure I am taking into consideration all of the ways the project will
be affected in pre-production, production, and post. It is too easy to
forget stuff and incur costs of time, goods, and services that nickle and
dime your reasonable and legitimate profits away.
|
Thanks Steve. I do appreciate it. Unfortunately, due to my mistake in
the price of the first project, I find myself where I was this
morning.
Here's the deal: I repeatedly here the cliche that industrial
corporate stuff should cost at least 1k a minute. Many say this is far
too low. Now I have to do 60 minutes worth of video. So, if I use the
rule of thumb that's 60k. Yet I don't see how the project could
legitimately cost the client even half of that. (See my first post to
see a description of project.) I did a run-through on the budget work
sheets and 30k would be very generous indeed.
I want to charge a fair price, of course. But I certainly want to
myself as good a job as possible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve King
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:27 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
"P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:jvb9k19q5qc3hnioj3lpv7nagiuktt5f61@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:31:45 -0500, "Steve King"
steveSPAMBLOCK@stevekingSPAMBLOCK.net> wrote:
"P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:6tk8k1diof77d98g1utt4op4p3nlsftiib@4ax.com...
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:14:43 -0500, "Steve King"
steveSPAMBLOCK@stevekingSPAMBLOCK.net> wrote:
"P.C. Ford" <meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:2h88k1dbni9dt7thgqfv07bqkp1f2jhphi@4ax.com...
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford <meoh@mouse-potato.com
wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5 figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this morning.
Oh, should have added, there was happiness all 'round with the
project.
thanks!
You need a video budget form. Otherwise you will forget to charge for a
lot
of materials, services, and time. Here are a couple to look at:
http://www.jimzura.com/OtherBudgetSample3.htm
http://raven.ubalt.edu/departments/corpcom/courses/simon/projmgmtII/forms/videoBudget.pdf
And, neither of these is as comprehensive as the one I use.
Selling that 10 minute video for less than a $100 per minute sure left
you
in bind as far as charging anything like a fair price.
thanks, good, useable info on both urls.
What a relief!! That you didn't bill the $1K that I thought you meant.
You
may find an even better budget form. I use a budget form to help me think
through a project in the proposal preparation stage. Then I go back to it
frequently as the project becomes better defined. It is still a good tool
to make sure I am taking into consideration all of the ways the project
will
be affected in pre-production, production, and post. It is too easy to
forget stuff and incur costs of time, goods, and services that nickle and
dime your reasonable and legitimate profits away.
Thanks Steve. I do appreciate it. Unfortunately, due to my mistake in
the price of the first project, I find myself where I was this
morning.
Here's the deal: I repeatedly here the cliche that industrial
corporate stuff should cost at least 1k a minute. Many say this is far
too low. Now I have to do 60 minutes worth of video. So, if I use the
rule of thumb that's 60k. Yet I don't see how the project could
legitimately cost the client even half of that. (See my first post to
see a description of project.) I did a run-through on the budget work
sheets and 30k would be very generous indeed.
I want to charge a fair price, of course. But I certainly want to
myself as good a job as possible.
|
$30K may be a good figure. A word of caution. Don't base your estimates on
everything going smoothly. It so rarely does. Build in a cushion. Then
strive to come in under the top number. Your client will remember it if you
do.
Steve King |
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| Back to top |
|
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Steve Guidry
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
In my experience, the $1k per minute figure falls apart as projects get
longer. That's because it usually takes comparatively less additional
resources to produce the longer videos. Here's what I mean : The camera is
there already. So what if you shoot for 3 hours or 6 hours. You're billing
for a full day anyway. In the edit process, much of your work is in
defining the piece's overall look and feel - - getting the show's graphic
elements' "style" just right. Going through all the approvals for that . .
.. When it's done, it's comparatively little additional work to just create
a few more lower thirds, or even full pages.
On this project, I'd try to make a careful evaluation of the actors'
abilities to carry the piece for 30 minutes of talking. Unless they're
professionals - - that is to say if they are folks from inside the company
who have been tapped to be the talent - - I'd build in 2X or more cushion to
give them time to get it right. Be aware that often there are internal
political reasons for choosing the talent, and you can't just fire them.
Also, be sure to ask if the approval process has changed since last time;
Ask "Who has to approve the final project ?" If there are 2 or 3 additional
people who didn't have to sign off on the last one, then add 25% or so,
because each of them likely has their own agenda about what the video should
contain and look like. Especially be wary of "higher-ups" who want
approval but somehow can't make time for the planning process. I usually
add 50% for those folks, and it's not enough. They're the ones who will
have you starting over from scratch.
Finally, if you at all can do so, insist on a graduated payment plan : 25%
of the initial estimate upon script completion/approval; 50% upon completion
of the shooting, and the balance upon completion of the edit. There's
something about having already paid for it that makes a customer more
flexible in their demands for changes. And the converse is true as well :
It's a lot easier to tell them "OK, these changes are do-able, but it's
going to cost you $XXX more . . ." when you only have the last 25% riding
on their answer. Deal with them from a position of strength. If you think
they won't go for a graduated payment plan, try this approach : "You know
John, that previous project was small enough for me to finance it for you,
but this one will take a lot more time and resources on my part. The
pay-as-we-go approach allows me to give your project the focus and internal
priority it deserves instead of having to chase other projects to pay the
bills for the next 2 months while we're working on it." You'll probably be
surprised how well they will understand this.
More later if the interest warrants . . .
--
Steve Guidry
Video Works, Inc.
Live events for TV and Video
www.videoworksinc.com
800.844.4404
| Quote: | Thanks Steve. I do appreciate it. Unfortunately, due to my mistake in
the price of the first project, I find myself where I was this
morning.
Here's the deal: I repeatedly here the cliche that industrial
corporate stuff should cost at least 1k a minute. Many say this is far
too low. Now I have to do 60 minutes worth of video. So, if I use the
rule of thumb that's 60k. Yet I don't see how the project could
legitimately cost the client even half of that. (See my first post to
see a description of project.) I did a run-through on the budget work
sheets and 30k would be very generous indeed.
I want to charge a fair price, of course. But I certainly want to
myself as good a job as possible.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve King
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
"Steve Guidry" <steveguidry@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:hca1f.9622$vw6.3391@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| Quote: | In my experience, the $1k per minute figure falls apart as projects get
longer. That's because it usually takes comparatively less additional
resources to produce the longer videos. Here's what I mean : The camera
is
there already. So what if you shoot for 3 hours or 6 hours. You're
billing
for a full day anyway. In the edit process, much of your work is in
defining the piece's overall look and feel - - getting the show's graphic
elements' "style" just right. Going through all the approvals for that .
.
. When it's done, it's comparatively little additional work to just
create
a few more lower thirds, or even full pages.
On this project, I'd try to make a careful evaluation of the actors'
abilities to carry the piece for 30 minutes of talking. Unless they're
professionals - - that is to say if they are folks from inside the company
who have been tapped to be the talent - - I'd build in 2X or more cushion
to
give them time to get it right. Be aware that often there are internal
political reasons for choosing the talent, and you can't just fire them.
Also, be sure to ask if the approval process has changed since last time;
Ask "Who has to approve the final project ?" If there are 2 or 3
additional
people who didn't have to sign off on the last one, then add 25% or so,
because each of them likely has their own agenda about what the video
should
contain and look like. Especially be wary of "higher-ups" who want
approval but somehow can't make time for the planning process. I usually
add 50% for those folks, and it's not enough. They're the ones who will
have you starting over from scratch.
Finally, if you at all can do so, insist on a graduated payment plan :
25%
of the initial estimate upon script completion/approval; 50% upon
completion
of the shooting, and the balance upon completion of the edit. There's
something about having already paid for it that makes a customer more
flexible in their demands for changes. And the converse is true as well :
It's a lot easier to tell them "OK, these changes are do-able, but it's
going to cost you $XXX more . . ." when you only have the last 25%
riding
on their answer. Deal with them from a position of strength. If you
think
they won't go for a graduated payment plan, try this approach : "You know
John, that previous project was small enough for me to finance it for you,
but this one will take a lot more time and resources on my part. The
pay-as-we-go approach allows me to give your project the focus and
internal
priority it deserves instead of having to chase other projects to pay the
bills for the next 2 months while we're working on it." You'll probably
be
surprised how well they will understand this.
More later if the interest warrants . . .
|
Correct on every point. I think your last sentence deserves emphasis,
"You'll probably be
| Quote: | surprised how well they will understand this." When I first went into
business, my top priority was to get the job. That meant lowball bids and
prayers that everything would go smoothly. Now, I know that things don't
always go smoothly. They go wrong in ways that I cannot control. I
explain that to my clients on the first meeting after a proposal is
selected. In almost all cases I find clients to be reasonable people able
to recognize their choices will impact the budget. I make an agreement
with them that whenever a change or new idea is proposed we will
immediately discuss what impact it might have on the budget.
In a meeting this morning my client asked if I thought an aerial shot of his |
facility would be worth doing. I told him it would work for the video, but
it would be an add-on and about how much it might cost. We decided to do
the shot but add high resolution digital stills and to treat it as a
separate job, which he will sell to his board both for the benefits to the
video and to their frequent brochures, catalogs, etc. The point I'm trying
to make is that one need not be afraid to talk with clients about the costs
involved in production. They make value decisions all the time. Give them
choices and let them choose. All the while being fair to yourself and those
who depend on you.
Steve King |
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| Back to top |
|
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Larry J.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:20 am Post subject:
Re: Your Guess for Project Cost? |
|
|
Waiving the right to remain silent, P.C. Ford
<meoh@mouse-potato.com> said:
| Quote: | On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 20:05:07 GMT, "Larry J."
usenet2@DE.LETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote:
Waiving the right to remain silent, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> said:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0700, P.C. Ford
meoh@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
We did a 10 minute
video (was supposed to be 5-7 minutes) for well under 5
figures.
Should have said well under _4_ figures. Can't count this
morning.
Less than $1,000 for a finished, ten-minute video..?
No ,no, no. Sorry, my mind is in a dozen places today.
Well under 10k. There you go.
And thanks for the head-up on that.
|
Well, many producers sill swear by the tried and true, $1,000 per
finished minute, as a general rule.
--
Larry Jandro
Video Engineering & Equipment Rentals
Scottsdale, Arizona, USA
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