| Author |
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Chel van Gennip
Guest
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 Posted:
Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject:
M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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Today I made, as promissed, some real recordings with the Microtrack.
Two microphones AKG C480B with CK62ULS capsules (comparable with Schoeps
CMS 6 + MK 2, but better ;-) + Microtrack 2496. Recorded at 48/24, peak
level -7dB
Normalised and converted to 48/16
Hall was not very quiet, some noise from airconditioners and outside.
Piano bench needs fixing. Piano (Sauter) and acoustics were not perfect.
http://www.serg.vangennip.com/piano2.wav (size 34M)
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
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Karl W. Lohninger
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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But doesn't the AKG 480 series ask specifically for 48V phantom - unlike the
460s which were spec'd for 15V to 48V......? Did you furnish phantom power
via the Microtrack? Would you be able to compare with a similar recording
setup but applied 48V phantom.....? Would be interesting.
Karl
On 10/2/05 9:30 AM, in article 3qag8gFe072lU1@individual.net, "Chel van
Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote:
| Quote: | Today I made, as promissed, some real recordings with the Microtrack.
Two microphones AKG C480B with CK62ULS capsules (comparable with Schoeps
CMS 6 + MK 2, but better ;-) + Microtrack 2496. Recorded at 48/24, peak
level -7dB
Normalised and converted to 48/16
Hall was not very quiet, some noise from airconditioners and outside.
Piano bench needs fixing. Piano (Sauter) and acoustics were not perfect.
http://www.serg.vangennip.com/piano2.wav (size 34M) |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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"Karl W. Lohninger" wrote:
| Quote: | But doesn't the AKG 480 series ask specifically for 48V phantom
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Supply voltage: P 48 (phantom power to DIN 45 596 at 48 Vą4 V)
Note +- 4V !
http://www.akg.com/mediadatabase/psfile/datei/73/c480b_ck614055c45da05bf.pdf
Graham
| Quote: | - unlike the
460s which were spec'd for 15V to 48V......? Did you furnish phantom power
via the Microtrack? Would you be able to compare with a similar recording
setup but applied 48V phantom.....? Would be interesting.
Karl
On 10/2/05 9:30 AM, in article 3qag8gFe072lU1@individual.net, "Chel van
Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote:
Today I made, as promissed, some real recordings with the Microtrack.
Two microphones AKG C480B with CK62ULS capsules (comparable with Schoeps
CMS 6 + MK 2, but better ;-) + Microtrack 2496. Recorded at 48/24, peak
level -7dB
Normalised and converted to 48/16
Hall was not very quiet, some noise from airconditioners and outside.
Piano bench needs fixing. Piano (Sauter) and acoustics were not perfect.
http://www.serg.vangennip.com/piano2.wav (size 34M) |
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Chel van Gennip
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:58:51 +0200, Karl W. Lohninger wrote:
| Quote: | On 10/2/05 9:30 AM, in article 3qag8gFe072lU1@individual.net, "Chel van
Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote:
Today I made, as promissed, some real recordings with the Microtrack.
Two microphones AKG C480B with CK62ULS capsules (comparable with
Schoeps CMS 6 + MK 2, but better ;-) + Microtrack 2496. Recorded at
48/24, peak level -7dB
Normalised and converted to 48/16
Hall was not very quiet, some noise from airconditioners and outside.
Piano bench needs fixing. Piano (Sauter) and acoustics were not
perfect.
http://www.serg.vangennip.com/piano2.wav (size 34M)
But doesn't the AKG 480 series ask specifically for 48V phantom - unlike
the 460s which were spec'd for 15V to 48V......? Did you furnish phantom
power via the Microtrack? Would you be able to compare with a similar
recording setup but applied 48V phantom.....? Would be interesting.
|
I did furnish phantom power via the Microtrack. As I understand from the
C480B service documentation both the polarising generator and the amp
work on a 12-15V that is derived from the phantom power with a regulator
circuit. The regulator circuit looks like it can handle a large voltage
swing.
I added a picture of the setup I used for the recording:
http://www.serg.vangennip.com/microtrack.jpg It gives a nice picture
where the Microtrack is usefull.
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com |
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Karl W. Lohninger
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:48 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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Well, that's the point. 48V +-4V equals 44V to 52V phantom power - nowhere
close to the 30V delivered by the Microtrack.
When I deliver 15V phantom (except 48V) via my mixer to my 480s it's gonna
sound quite different....;-(
Karl
On 10/2/05 10:15 AM, in article 4340159D.1A9AE9F2@hotmail.com, "Pooh Bear"
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Karl W. Lohninger" wrote:
But doesn't the AKG 480 series ask specifically for 48V phantom
Supply voltage: P 48 (phantom power to DIN 45 596 at 48 Vą4 V)
Note +- 4V !
http://www.akg.com/mediadatabase/psfile/datei/73/c480b_ck614055c45da05bf.pdf
Graham
- unlike the
460s which were spec'd for 15V to 48V......? Did you furnish phantom power
via the Microtrack? Would you be able to compare with a similar recording
setup but applied 48V phantom.....? Would be interesting.
Karl
On 10/2/05 9:30 AM, in article 3qag8gFe072lU1@individual.net, "Chel van
Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote:
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Jonny Durango
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:11 am Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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Thanks a ton for the recording.....beautiful work on the piano!
| Quote: |
Hall was not very quiet, some noise from airconditioners and outside.
Piano bench needs fixing. Piano (Sauter) and acoustics were not perfect.
|
Anyhow, I think this speaks volumes for the argument that the real-life
physical noise-floor is often louder than the electronic self-noise of a
device, making it almost irrevelant. Anyway, great recording IMHO....if
they can fix this 30v bug I'll definately buy one!
--
Jonny Durango
www.jdurango.com
"If the key of C is the people's key, what is the key of the bourgeoisie?" |
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soundgun
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:52 am Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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Sold!
That is a pretty remarkable recording considering the size and cost of
the recording device, and using it's internal preamps and phantom power
supply. It certainly exposes any flaws with the room or piano, and
reproduces the full pitch and dynamic range of the instrument quite
well. Would love to have heard it with the mics a good deal closer to
tune out the room a bit, but it sounds natural.
You'd need to record in a truely isolated studio space to expose the
noise floor of any part of this device, which is the last place you are
likely to use it!
Bravo M-Audio...
George Whittam |
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Chel van Gennip
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:02 am Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 23:11:19 +0200, Jonny Durango wrote:
| Quote: | Anyhow, I think this speaks volumes for the argument that the real-life
physical noise-floor is often louder than the electronic self-noise of a
device, making it almost irrevelant.
|
The sound level of a piano at a propper recording distance is about 95dB,
the noise floor of the best microphones is about 10 dB. So 85 dB would be
sufficient to record a piano. The noise level of a hall with audience is
way above the 10dB. So you won't even need the 85 dB
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com |
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Dave
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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Hi Chel,
Thanks for posting your recording...very nice. Would you agree that the
Microtrack sounds pretty good for a less-than-$500 device? Perfect choice of
dynamic piano music to put the Microtrack through it's paces. The heavy
bottom end of the piano came through nicely without fuzzing out.
Hmmm, I wonder if you could use a Microtrack with a wireless system? Could
you plug a lav into the Microtrack, and feed it's live output to a
transmitter, giving you a dropout free, isolated backup track, at a
recording resolution the same as the main recorder? Would feeding the sound
through a Microtrack cause a delay in the delivery of the wireless signal to
the main mixer/recorder? I guess it might be a pain for pausing recording in
between takes but maybe a good safety in case of wireless dropouts?
Cheers,
Dave
"Chel van Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote in message
news:3qag8gFe072lU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Today I made, as promissed, some real recordings with the Microtrack.
Two microphones AKG C480B with CK62ULS capsules (comparable with Schoeps
CMS 6 + MK 2, but better ;-) + Microtrack 2496. Recorded at 48/24, peak
level -7dB
Normalised and converted to 48/16
Hall was not very quiet, some noise from airconditioners and outside.
Piano bench needs fixing. Piano (Sauter) and acoustics were not perfect.
http://www.serg.vangennip.com/piano2.wav (size 34M)
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com |
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Mike Rivers
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:40 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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Dave wrote:
| Quote: | Would you agree that the
Microtrack sounds pretty good for a less-than-$500 device?
|
There are plenty of things that cost less than $500 that will make a
good recording, given a good source. I don't think anyone has (yet)
quibbled with the MicroTrack about its ability to record. It might be a
great choice for someone who has never owned a portable recorder and is
just getting geared up.
For those of us who are looking for a replacement for what might be our
third or fourth generation portable recording equipment, we're looking
for other than its ability to make good piano recordings.
I wouldn't directly discourage anyone from buying one of these, I just
want to emphasize that it's not just about sound quality. Media,
operating convenience, continous operating time, and necessary
accessories should be important considerations. If all I wanted to do
was record a concert from my seat or record my band's rehearsal, I'm
sure it would do just fine as long as the batteries hold out and you
have enough gigabytes to store the show. But if, in order to record a
whole weekend event, I have to carry a computer, a power supply for the
recorder, a mic preamp or phantom power supply, and who knows what
else, I'm going to look for a more completely integrated solution.
| Quote: | Hmmm, I wonder if you could use a Microtrack with a wireless system? Could
you plug a lav into the Microtrack, and feed it's live output to a
transmitter, giving you a dropout free, isolated backup track, at a
recording resolution the same as the main recorder?
|
Why wireless? I guess your intent is to use the MicroTrack as the mic
preamp for both itself and the "main" recorder? Why not just connect
them with a cable?
| Quote: | Would feeding the sound
through a Microtrack cause a delay in the delivery of the wireless signal to
the main mixer/recorder?
|
Almost certainly - not because of the wireless transmission, but
because of the throughput delay of the recorder - unless it has a
"direct input monitor" mode. Someone who has one could check this out
easily (unless they're feeding it from an externa A/D converter, in
which case, according to Len's report, you don't get a monitor output). |
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Chel van Gennip
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:40:31 +0200, Mike Rivers wrote:
| Quote: | For those of us who are looking for a replacement for what might be our
third or fourth generation portable recording equipment, we're looking
for other than its ability to make good piano recordings.
|
<sigh>
I normally use my recorders for piano, most of them were able to record
other instruments and even voice too. I have not tested the MT yet, but I
think it is able to record other things too.
| Quote: | I wouldn't directly discourage anyone from buying one of these, I just
want to emphasize that it's not just about sound quality. Media,
operating convenience, continous operating time, and necessary
accessories should be important considerations. If all I wanted to do
was record a concert from my seat or record my band's rehearsal, I'm
sure it would do just fine as long as the batteries hold out and you
have enough gigabytes to store the show. But if, in order to record a
whole weekend event, I have to carry a computer, a power supply for the
recorder, a mic preamp or phantom power supply, and who knows what else,
I'm going to look for a more completely integrated solution.
|
If you want to record a whole weekend event, it is better not to try it
totally battery driven. A single 4GB flashcard will last for 6 hours at
44.1/16. For about $100 you have a external USB drive that can copy the
data directly from your Microtrack, 4GB in about 10 minutes. I don't feel
the need for external preamps or phantom. So if I would record a whole
weekend event, I would need MT2496 with its tiny powersupply and a 2.5"
portable drive. Maybe, if you don't expect 10 minute breaks in the event,
you could add a second CF card.
I know you think you need extra personel to do the 10 minute copying once
every 6 hours. This extra personel could help you carying the 1 pound of
equipment.
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com |
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Arny Krueger
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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"Karl W. Lohninger" <XXsound@XXirisartist.com> wrote in
message news:BF655FD9.13DD6%XXsound@XXirisartist.com
| Quote: | But doesn't the AKG 480 series ask specifically for 48V
phantom - unlike the 460s which were spec'd for 15V to
48V......? Did you furnish phantom power via the
Microtrack? Would you be able to compare with a similar
recording setup but applied 48V phantom.....? Would be
interesting.
|
This is obviously one of those sitautions where we get to
compare the theoretical and specified performance of
equipment to what happens when the rubber hits the road, IOW
some poor schmuck tries to make a real world recording.
If someone really wants to understand this situation, they'd
compare recordings of really loud live sources made with
various mics and various phantom voltages.
Under the covers there are two models of condensor mic power
supplies that are being discussed.
One model has condensor mics working like they have
regulated power supplies. This means they have the same
basic ability to handle SPLs once some certain minimum
phantom voltage is reached. Of course, a spec sheet isn't
going to necessarily give you that voltage accurately.
The second model has condensor mics working like they have
unregulated power supplies. This means that they will have
maximum undistorted SPL capacity that changes with the
voltage of the phantom power supply.
Thirdly, we suspect that there is some minimum phantom
voltage below which the mic won't work at all. From
experiece, we know that this is some number greater than
zero, because its pretty universal and obvious that
condensor mics don't work without some phantom voltage
applied.
Looking under the covers of mics and reading their
schematics, its pretty obvious that condensors vary all over
the map.
Any recording device that provides a low phantom voltage
will therefore provide its owners with a lifetime of happy
and unhappy experiences. If you really want to be sure,
you'll always carry a standard phantom supply with you just
in case. |
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Mike Rivers
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:45 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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Chel van Gennip wrote:
| Quote: | If you want to record a whole weekend event, it is better not to try it
totally battery driven. A single 4GB flashcard will last for 6 hours at
44.1/16. For about $100 you have a external USB drive that can copy the
data directly from your Microtrack, 4GB in about 10 minutes.
|
Please, let's not start this discussion again. We had it a while back -
same arguments on both sides. Please accept that this simply won't work
for me. I have too many other things to think about than renewing my
recording medium. I'm used to removing used media, replacing it with
blank media, and continuing my recording ASAP.
I don't expect that a set of batteries will last for a whole weekend of
continuous recording, but I'd like to be able to run all day without
changing batteries and have them recharge overnight. That would be
acceptable. And if there are batteries in the recorder, batteries in
the computer or flash card data drive, batteries in a phantom power
supply or outboard mic preamp, surely they won't all die at the same
time. This is a large management problem that I wouldn't need to deal
with if only the recorder would do everything I want. Isn't that
simple? Can't you understand and accept that?
| Quote: | I don't feel the need for external preamps or phantom.
|
I suppose there are times when I could get away without it. After all,
30 years ago I used to carry a cassette recorder and one dynamic mic
and made some decent informal recordings. But why spend $500 on a
recorder knowing that there are microphones that I would like to use
with it which will either not work at all or not work to their full
specifications without an extermal power supply?
| Quote: | I know you think you need extra personel to do the 10 minute copying once
every 6 hours. This extra personel could help you carying the 1 pound of
equipment.
|
You're welcome to come along (at your own expense - I have no budget to
pay you) and be my roadie. |
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Martin Harrington
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:05 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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I have a feeling this discussion has been hijacked by a group of people not
involved in recording Audio for Film and TV.
For us, at this time, the MT is a non event.
--
Martin Harrington
www.lendanear-sound.com
"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:1128343545.639747.320490@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Chel van Gennip wrote:
If you want to record a whole weekend event, it is better not to try it
totally battery driven. A single 4GB flashcard will last for 6 hours at
44.1/16. For about $100 you have a external USB drive that can copy the
data directly from your Microtrack, 4GB in about 10 minutes.
Please, let's not start this discussion again. We had it a while back -
same arguments on both sides. Please accept that this simply won't work
for me. I have too many other things to think about than renewing my
recording medium. I'm used to removing used media, replacing it with
blank media, and continuing my recording ASAP.
I don't expect that a set of batteries will last for a whole weekend of
continuous recording, but I'd like to be able to run all day without
changing batteries and have them recharge overnight. That would be
acceptable. And if there are batteries in the recorder, batteries in
the computer or flash card data drive, batteries in a phantom power
supply or outboard mic preamp, surely they won't all die at the same
time. This is a large management problem that I wouldn't need to deal
with if only the recorder would do everything I want. Isn't that
simple? Can't you understand and accept that?
I don't feel the need for external preamps or phantom.
I suppose there are times when I could get away without it. After all,
30 years ago I used to carry a cassette recorder and one dynamic mic
and made some decent informal recordings. But why spend $500 on a
recorder knowing that there are microphones that I would like to use
with it which will either not work at all or not work to their full
specifications without an extermal power supply?
I know you think you need extra personel to do the 10 minute copying once
every 6 hours. This extra personel could help you carying the 1 pound of
equipment.
You're welcome to come along (at your own expense - I have no budget to
pay you) and be my roadie.
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Richard Crowley
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject:
Re: M-Audio Microtrack 2496 recordings |
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"Martin Harrington" wrote ...
| Quote: | I have a feeling this discussion has been hijacked by a group
of people not involved in recording Audio for Film and TV.
|
Note that this thread is cross-posted to rec.audio.pro
and rec.audio.tech. The topic is of mutual interest to
all three newsgroups and we all benefit from the cross-
discipline discussion.
| Quote: | For us, at this time, the MT is a non event.
|
And many people NOT involved in recording Audio for Film
and TV have come to the same conclusion, and for many of
the same reasons. |
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