DVD-Software.info

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:co8oqn$ku9$1@panix2.panix.com...

[rickymix]

Hi again Chris,
Well, I've re-read your original post and noticed you mentioned
three turntables. So I guess you're trying to capture some type of
live performance in addition to the MIDI stuff. My mistake, I had
thought you were 100% MIDI.
Are you looking to overdub parts, or just mix a performance down
to 2 track? Either way, I'd highly recommend looking at a Speck mixer
to combine all your audio sources. They're specifically made for what
you're doing. If you Google for "Speck Electronics" you'll find their
site.
Cheers, Rick.

[Chris Pickett]

Hi everyone,

Thanks kindly for all the replies so far. I'm going to clarify a few
things (some of which is repeated info), summarize your opinions a
little, and then ask for advice on two options (digital and tape
recorder setups). If you actually take the time to read all the way to
the bottom, I really respect that, it's not expected in any way :)

1) My current setup and what I want to record:

Rick Novak asked why I don't record everything in MIDI, and then go to a
studio and dump it all to 2-track tape, bypassing a recorder altogether.
There are several complications:

1.1) My synthesizer (the Andromeda A6) is a 16-voice machine. It
doesn't have the practically unlimited polyphony of digital synths. In
many cases I want to use all 16 voices on one track, in particular for
keys, pads, and string patches.

1.2) Not everything is MIDI-based. In the near future I will be
incorporating analog effects, like distortion pedals, phasers, a spring
or plate reverb, and an Echoplex EP-2 tape delay into my setup. In the
not-so-near future, I'll probably start playing with mics also.

1.3) The MIDI data sent by the A6 is really dense. You can thin it out,
but then you lose information. This means you can't really get a
faithful MIDI-only recording for complex parts.

I *need* some way to monitor old parts while playing / composing new
parts. From 1.1-1.3 you can see that it can't all be done using MIDI,
and that I must have a multi-track recorder of some sort.

2) Why I'm excited by tape:

A lot of people have been telling me that if I think problems with
computers are a pain, I'm going to think tape is even more of a pain.
There's confusion as to why I'd want to do this to myself.

2.1) The truth is, actually I love computers. I love writing software
and (perhaps crazily) I even like finding and fixing bugs in that
software. I like having a deep understanding of how things work.
However, I can only handle 40-50 hours a week of computers before I
start to be extremely unproductive. As soon as it's a different
environment, it's like all my energy for solving problems and figuring
stuff out is refreshed. As I'm fascinated with computers, I'm also
fascinated with the workings of all this analog gear; if I learned to
calibrate and maintain a good tape deck, I think I'd be quite happy. I
could do this as a studio intern, but unless I've got one myself, I
can't do it on my own time (which is important) or get as excited
because I'm actually making my own music.

2.2) Sound quality. I'll give you that with just digital recording and
playback (no digital effects), you can get a pretty accurate
reproduction of your input signal at 24/96 (I have a 24/48 card).
However, I'm not looking for accurate reproductions of my input signal.
What I want are the wonderful tape saturation effects, and the other
benefits of going through all the analog circuitry in these machines. I
don't want to worry about digital distortion, and I also wanna be able
to send the needles to +6dB. I've played with tape saturation plugins
(PSP VintageWarmer) and while they're certainly loads of fun (never mind
not really being available for Linux), I'm sure it doesn't compare to
the real thing. I'm also wary of investing in a bunch of digital stuff,
and then having to buy even more gear just to warm things up.

2.3) Aesthetic reasons. I (for one reason or another) think not only
that analog(ue) sound is a beautiful thing, but that the act of using
all non-digital sound sources and modifiers in a signal chain, from
synthesizer to vinyl record to human ears, especially when making
strictly electronic music, is also a beautiful thing. It's like this
alternate technological reality that could have been if computers didn't
exist (yes, I acknowledge computers facilitate control, but they don't
have to). It's the same reason I listen to / play vinyl and not CD's.
It's the same reason I don't like digital photography (despite the
existence of good SLR digital cameras). It's the same reason I'm
fascinated by old films and not by The Matrix or Star Wars. Digital
forms of traditional art, where the digital stuff is trying to mimic the
analog stuff, just don't do it for me. I do love the *new* art forms
that have arisen from digital media: the Pixar films (not possible with
traditional animation techniques), computer games (both graphical and
text-based), and of course the art that is writing software.

2.4) I'm jealous. You guys are pros, you're big boys, you all got to
play with these machines for years. I'm 24, and I'm not really liking
the digital revolution that's eaten up the rest of my generation.
Analog equipment is getting more and more obscure all the time, and if I
don't do this now, never mind me not helping to preserve something
that's dying, I feel like I won't get to do it in my lifetime.

3) Advice I've been given so far:

I recognize that you all have infinitely more experience than me in
getting good professional recordings made. That's why I came here.

3.1) Don't settle for narrow-gauge tape, or a dying recorder that needs
considerable work before it's usable. I would be better of with a
digital recorder in that situation. A 1" 8-track or 2" 16-track is what
I should be prepared to buy, and for a given project expect to invest in
half a dozen reels of tape.

3.2) Don't settle for a cheap console either. Regardless of whether I'm
using a tape deck or digital recorder, get a good console that can
accomodate my inputs and effects and give me the flexibility I need.

3.3) On top of the cost of a recorder and console, be prepared to fork
out an equal amount of cash for all kinds of accessories: cables,
patchbays, racks, stands, and power supplies.

3.4) Working with tape is not necessarily *easier* than working with
digital media, especially if I could rely on stable embedded processors
(magic pixies), and it should be clear to me that maintaining all this
equipment is a considerable investment in time, money, effort, and not
being able to produce music. Basically, I should be having an equal
amount of fun being a technician / engineer as would a musician /
producer; if not, tape really isn't for me.

3.5) Portability issues. I should make sure not buy anything too too
big if I plan to move anytime soon (basically, a washing machine of a
tape deck is the most I should try to accomodate). A studio console is
meant to get installed in a studio, not in an apartment.

Please add if I've missed anything here ...

4) WTB / recommendations / setup proposals / budget establishment:

It seems there are basically two options for me, digital recorder +
bigger console or tape recorder + smaller console. It would be nice to
establish reasonable amounts of time and money for each proposal, if you
can help me with that (I'm not too clear on the market value of these
products), and then I'll meditate on what I want to do. The $4-5K I've
previously mentioned for console and recorder together obviously doesn't
include other costs, and I'd like to get it sorted out before I commit
to either. I do have an income, and depending on how far my scholarship
applications make it down the stairs when they throw them, I might have
an extra $10000 to spend (but that includes outboard gear and effects
and probably getting my first record pressed too). Again, I'm all about
high-quality used goods.

4.1) Digital recorder. This would essentially leave me more money to
spend on other goods, like a nicer console. I've been told by you guys
that a good solution can be had for under $1000. Products include:

High end: iZ RADAR systems (fine, that won't be under $1K)
Down the chain: systems from Yamaha, Roland/BOSS, TASCAM, etc.
e.g. TASCAM DA-38, DA-78
Mackie MDR24/96 24-track

4.2) Tape-based recorder. If I did this, I would propose to have a 1"
8-track (2" machines being too expensive), and also to sell my JoMoX
AirBase 99 drum machine (10 outputs), gaining me $600, and limit myself
to the Alesis Andromeda A6 (16 outputs). I can make all drum sound with
the A6 and the JoMoX is fairly noisy and I'm just not in love with it.
I think this means I would be fine (for a few records) with a 16-channel
board. I don't know how much I should expect to pay for a tape deck,
but it *seems* that I'll be able to get something in good shape for
$2-3K (plus a good mastering deck for $1K).

Machines to avoid: all narrow gauge, Scully
Machines to look out for:
Ampex-102 (as a 2-track mastering deck)
Ampex MM-1200 (1" 8-track version)
Stephens machines
TASCAM 2" machines (but I'm aiming for 1" 8-track)
Scully 280B (as a 2-track mastering deck)
MCI 1" 8-tracks, if they made them.
Ampex AG-440 (either 2-track for mastering, 8-track for recording)

There is possibly a good deal on an AG-440 to be had in Washington (I
posted this elsewhere in response to Mike Rivers):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=67808&item=3761294349&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

The biggest concern I have with 1" 8-track vs. 2" 16-track is whether I
lose sound quality by bouncing and then mixing bounced tracks together.
The pain of doing so is not so much an issue. On the other hand, if I
can't get great recordings with a 1" 8-track, I'd really like to know!

4.3) Analog console (either way). A big studio console is impractical
(5 feet wide is sort of a limit) and I'm looking at 16 - 32-channel
boards. Having multiple boards is understood to be bad.

Soundcraft Ghost LE: currently one ending in 7 hours for $1500-2000
(this one needs work, and the seller is a bit sketchy)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3763933418&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Mackie 32x8 (not as nice as a Ghost)
Small Sound Workshop or MCI or Trident consoles (almost too much)
Soundtracs Solo or Soundtracs Topaz
Not the Tascam 300B series since they make noise and cause EMI.
"real" stuff from Randy Blevins, Boynton studios

So, assuming I go with the tape recorder, what about a 16-channel
console? What can I get that's really a step up from the Mackie 1604?
How much should I expect to pay? It needs to be inline.

4.4) Cables and patchbays and power supplies and stuff: budget $1000 to
$2000. How much do I really need if I just have a pile of effects, my
Andromeda, a recorder, and the mixer? Obviously this amount differs if
I'm getting an 8-track tape recorder and 16-channel console or 24-track
digital recorder and 32-channel console.

4.5) Other stuff? I have Alesis M1 Active MK-II monitors ("good
enough") and AKG-271S headphones (excellent). I work in an open and
oddly-shaped central living room area, so acoustic treatment doesn't
seem to be much of an issue. I'm not sure, but it would seem I'm more
in need of things like compressors and limiters if I don't have a tape deck.

Cheers,
Chris
--
http://www.sable.mcgill.ca/~cpicke/ (email address on that page)

[Chris Pickett]

rickymix wrote:

[Chris Pickett]

Chris Pickett wrote:

[Chris Pickett]

Chris Pickett wrote:

[hank alrich]

Chris Pickett wrote:

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

[Mike Rivers]

In article <R27qd.73957$Ro.2769761@news20.bellglobal.com> chris@sympatico.ca writes:

[Mike Rivers]

In article <1gnyehy.5kgza411ujcbaN%walkinay@thegrid.net> walkinay@thegrid.net writes:

[James Perrett]

Chris Pickett wrote:

[James Perrett]

Chris Pickett wrote:

[Chris Pickett]

Mike Rivers wrote:

[Mike Rivers]

In article <ZALqd.6448$kI6.494272@news20.bellglobal.com> chris@sympatico.ca writes: