| Author |
Message |
Chris Pickett
Guest
|
 Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:23 am Post subject:
seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
Hi,
I'm leaving the digital world except for MIDI sequencing, and need
some advice on mixers and a workable studio setup. I really just
don't like computers for audio, both in terms of the sound I
personally have been able to get from them, the amount of fun I have
while recording / setting things up (a negative amount). So don't try
to convince me otherwise! :)
So far, I've primarily looking at the Tascam 38 1/2" 8-track and
Tascam MS-16 1" 16-track machines as multitrack recorders.
I need some kind of (inline) mixer that will work with these and also
with my existing gear:
3 Technics turntables (6 mono outs)
1 Alesis Andromeda (16 outs)
1 JoMoX Airbase 99 (10 outs) -- I might replace this with a TR-808,
we'll see.
a bunch of analogue effects (not purchased yet, but I badly want them)
I want to make house, techno, ambient ... all sorts of electronic
music. Although it might be interesting in the future, microphones
aren't a necessity right now (my synthesizer is more than capable of
what I need).
Basically I'm looking for recommendations as to specific mixer models
as well as information on how I could wire everything together.
Naively it seems like I want a 32x8 mixer. Given that I don't want
any Mackie / Behringer / other similar quality gear, I think that
leaves me looking at a Ghost LE.
At the same time, that board is probably way too big and powerful and
expensive for what I want to do. I've been referred to the Tascam
M-300(B) line of mixers as having great sound. I think I could use a
Tascam M-312 to mix the drum machine outs, M-320 to mix the
synthesizer outs, and Tascam M-308 or plain DJ mixer to mix the
turntable outs. This seems workable, but I don't know how painful it
would be for recording (because I lack practical experience; I've just
been using the crappy stereo outs from these machines through a DJ
mixer into my PCMCIA sound card and doing it all on my computer). It
would also take some time to find all the right pieces ... that's not
such an issue.
Any other mixer series or tape machines that I should strongly be
considering? I want warm, beautiful, analog sound. I can't really
afford more than $2000 U.S. for mixers or $2000 U.S. for recorders.
Cheers,
Chris
http://www.sable.mcgill.ca/~cpicke/
P.S. Some recommendations on good phono pre-amps would be welcome; I
know there's a whole audiophile world devoted to that; I'd be willing
to spend up to $200 U.S. per pre-amp.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Chris Pickett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:07 am Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
Chris Pickett wrote:
| Quote: | Hi,
I'm leaving the digital world except for MIDI sequencing, and need
some advice on mixers and a workable studio setup. I really just
don't like computers for audio, both in terms of the sound I
personally have been able to get from them, the amount of fun I have
while recording / setting things up (a negative amount). So don't try
to convince me otherwise! :)
So far, I've primarily looking at the Tascam 38 1/2" 8-track and
Tascam MS-16 1" 16-track machines as multitrack recorders.
I need some kind of (inline) mixer that will work with these and also
with my existing gear:
3 Technics turntables (6 mono outs)
1 Alesis Andromeda (16 outs)
1 JoMoX Airbase 99 (10 outs) -- I might replace this with a TR-808,
we'll see.
a bunch of analogue effects (not purchased yet, but I badly want them)
I want to make house, techno, ambient ... all sorts of electronic
music. Although it might be interesting in the future, microphones
aren't a necessity right now (my synthesizer is more than capable of
what I need).
Basically I'm looking for recommendations as to specific mixer models
as well as information on how I could wire everything together.
Naively it seems like I want a 32x8 mixer. Given that I don't want
any Mackie / Behringer / other similar quality gear, I think that
leaves me looking at a Ghost LE.
At the same time, that board is probably way too big and powerful and
expensive for what I want to do. I've been referred to the Tascam
M-300(B) line of mixers as having great sound. I think I could use a
Tascam M-312 to mix the drum machine outs, M-320 to mix the
synthesizer outs, and Tascam M-308 or plain DJ mixer to mix the
turntable outs. This seems workable, but I don't know how painful it
would be for recording (because I lack practical experience; I've just
been using the crappy stereo outs from these machines through a DJ
mixer into my PCMCIA sound card and doing it all on my computer). It
would also take some time to find all the right pieces ... that's not
such an issue.
Any other mixer series or tape machines that I should strongly be
considering? I want warm, beautiful, analog sound. I can't really
afford more than $2000 U.S. for mixers or $2000 U.S. for recorders.
Cheers,
Chris
http://www.sable.mcgill.ca/~cpicke/
P.S. Some recommendations on good phono pre-amps would be welcome; I
know there's a whole audiophile world devoted to that; I'd be willing
to spend up to $200 U.S. per pre-amp.
|
By the way, I should mention some other things:
1) I'm only considering used gear, and live in Montreal, Canada.
2) I have some other gear already (monitors, headphones, DJ mixer,
crappy digital DJ effects). I didn't post about it because I thought it
was sort of irrelevant.
3) I guess I need recommendations on 1/4" mixdown decks. I will be
sending off the reels for mastering to vinyl. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
agent86
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:07 am Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
Chris Pickett wrote:
| Quote: | By the way, I should mention some other things:
2) I have some other gear already (monitors, headphones, DJ mixer,
crappy digital DJ effects). I didn't post about it because I thought it
was sort of irrelevant.
|
So, whats changed? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chris Pickett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:07 am Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
agent86 wrote:
| Quote: | Chris Pickett wrote:
By the way, I should mention some other things:
2) I have some other gear already (monitors, headphones, DJ mixer,
crappy digital DJ effects). I didn't post about it because I thought it
was sort of irrelevant.
So, whats changed?
|
Nothing, it's still irrelevant, I just wanted to head off "oh, you'll
need monitors, and headphones, and this and that" sort of responses --
to save people time. I'm basically just confused about which (used)
consoles and tape recorders to look out for and how to set them up for
productive workflow. And sorry for not snipping my original long post
when I made that reply.
Chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Rivers
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
In article <yRapd.37776$Ro.1611310@news20.bellglobal.com> chris@sympatico.ca writes:
| Quote: | So far, I've primarily looking at the Tascam 38 1/2" 8-track and
Tascam MS-16 1" 16-track machines as multitrack recorders.
|
Shrug. What do you have against an Ampex or MCI 16 or 24-track? Trying
to save a few bucks on tape cost? The difference in sound, particulary
for the thumpy, airy stuff that you seem to be doing, is significant.
| Quote: | Basically I'm looking for recommendations as to specific mixer models
as well as information on how I could wire everything together.
Naively it seems like I want a 32x8 mixer. Given that I don't want
any Mackie / Behringer / other similar quality gear, I think that
leaves me looking at a Ghost LE.
|
You said you wanted to buy used gear. Why look at a used Ghost? Look
at a used Trident or even a used MCI.
As far as how to wire everythign together, well, you connect line
outputs to line inputs, and unless your turntables have built-in
preamps. you'll need preamps for those, between the cartridge and the
console. A patchbay will be very important. You will have a LOT of
cables, so don't forget to budget for them - a couple of thousand
dollars if you're going to buy them ready made, close to a grand and a
week full time if you're going to build cables yourself. I recommend
the latter, or that you hire someone who knows what he's doing. You
can learn a lot by watching. You can't learn much by trying to find
and undo your mistakes.
| Quote: | At the same time, that board is probably way too big and powerful and
expensive for what I want to do. I've been referred to the Tascam
M-300(B) line of mixers as having great sound.
|
With suggestions like that, you might as well get a Mackie. You have a
very large number of inputs. If you want them all connected to the
console so you can use any of them any time, you will need a large
console. When it comes to hum and noise (of which you're likely to
have a lot with all that diverse equipment conneted) Mackie does a lot
better than TASCAM.
| Quote: | I think I could use a
Tascam M-312 to mix the drum machine outs, M-320 to mix the
synthesizer outs, and Tascam M-308 or plain DJ mixer to mix the
turntable outs. This seems workable, but I don't know how painful it
would be for recording (because I lack practical experience; I've just
been using the crappy stereo outs from these machines through a DJ
mixer into my PCMCIA sound card and doing it all on my computer).
|
This is a lot of haywire, and it's not a way to work efficiently. You
need a large console, you need the wiring, and you need the space. Or
else you need to change your plans.
| Quote: | Any other mixer series or tape machines that I should strongly be
considering? I want warm, beautiful, analog sound. I can't really
afford more than $2000 U.S. for mixers or $2000 U.S. for recorders.
|
You won't get it. Sorry. Lower your expectations or raise your budget.
| Quote: | 3) I guess I need recommendations on 1/4" mixdown decks. I will be
sending off the reels for mastering to vinyl.
|
Ampex AG-440.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chris Pickett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:58 pm Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
Mike Rivers wrote:
| Quote: | In article <yRapd.37776$Ro.1611310@news20.bellglobal.com> chris@sympatico.ca writes:
So far, I've primarily looking at the Tascam 38 1/2" 8-track and
Tascam MS-16 1" 16-track machines as multitrack recorders.
Shrug. What do you have against an Ampex or MCI 16 or 24-track? Trying
to save a few bucks on tape cost? The difference in sound, particulary
for the thumpy, airy stuff that you seem to be doing, is significant.
|
Nothing in particular, that's just what's been recommended so far. Tape
cost is moderately important; I don't know if I want to pay for 2" tape
(but would consider it). Perhaps ironically, some of the stuff I really
like is done on such noisy equipment that they had to make the noise and
hiss a fundamental part of the recording (and not in some silly retro
fad kind of way). But I don't want everything I do to sound like that.
| Quote: | Basically I'm looking for recommendations as to specific mixer models
as well as information on how I could wire everything together.
Naively it seems like I want a 32x8 mixer. Given that I don't want
any Mackie / Behringer / other similar quality gear, I think that
leaves me looking at a Ghost LE.
You said you wanted to buy used gear. Why look at a used Ghost? Look
at a used Trident or even a used MCI.
|
Only because it was the only thing I found and looking back in this
newsgroup I found a huge thread talking about how nice it is. No other
reason. I will look at Trident and MCI gear.
| Quote: | As far as how to wire everythign together, well, you connect line
outputs to line inputs, and unless your turntables have built-in
preamps. you'll need preamps for those, between the cartridge and the
console. A patchbay will be very important. You will have a LOT of
cables, so don't forget to budget for them - a couple of thousand
dollars if you're going to buy them ready made, close to a grand and a
week full time if you're going to build cables yourself. I recommend
the latter, or that you hire someone who knows what he's doing. You
can learn a lot by watching. You can't learn much by trying to find
and undo your mistakes.
|
I hadn't considered building cables; I will look into this too (possibly
trying to get someone to teach me).
| Quote: |
At the same time, that board is probably way too big and powerful and
expensive for what I want to do. I've been referred to the Tascam
M-300(B) line of mixers as having great sound.
With suggestions like that, you might as well get a Mackie. You have a
very large number of inputs. If you want them all connected to the
console so you can use any of them any time, you will need a large
console. When it comes to hum and noise (of which you're likely to
have a lot with all that diverse equipment conneted) Mackie does a lot
better than TASCAM.
|
Okay. It's only that I've heard some things come through Mackie boards
and they gave it a quality I didn't really like; hard to describe since
I don't have much to compare with, I guess a bit dry and lifeless.
| Quote: | I think I could use a
Tascam M-312 to mix the drum machine outs, M-320 to mix the
synthesizer outs, and Tascam M-308 or plain DJ mixer to mix the
turntable outs. This seems workable, but I don't know how painful it
would be for recording (because I lack practical experience; I've just
been using the crappy stereo outs from these machines through a DJ
mixer into my PCMCIA sound card and doing it all on my computer).
This is a lot of haywire, and it's not a way to work efficiently. You
need a large console, you need the wiring, and you need the space. Or
else you need to change your plans.
|
So, at the other end of the (entry-level) spectrum, I'm considering
limiting myself to a cheap 1/2" 8-track like a Tascam 38 or Otari 5050
MK-III 8, and a simple 8-channel mixer to go with it. This would force
me to use the crap stereo outs on the drum machine and synthesizer, but
at the same time give me something rather simple to cut my teeth on, as
it were.
My only real fear is that if I happened to make something I liked, I
don't know if I could go and "make it better" at a later date (chance
elements in music being important and all). The stereo outputs aren't
_that_ crap, but you can imagine that onboard mixers are worse than
external mixers. A lot of the time, for the big 16-out synthesizer, I
would want the exact same settings on each channel strip, which is why
spending a "lot" on a console to mix them seems a bit silly -- but I
don't know of any good mixers without all the usual goodies you expect
to see in a channel strip.
| Quote: | Any other mixer series or tape machines that I should strongly be
considering? I want warm, beautiful, analog sound. I can't really
afford more than $2000 U.S. for mixers or $2000 U.S. for recorders.
You won't get it. Sorry. Lower your expectations or raise your budget.
|
Okay, well thanks for being frank. A lot of people talk about how old
studio gear is now available for a fraction of the original price, and
that's why I thought it would be enough (I mean, a 1" 8-track Studer A80
Mark II is on eBay right now for $1900 with zero bids, and I thought
that was pretty decent; the "buy-it-now" price is $2900).
| Quote: |
3) I guess I need recommendations on 1/4" mixdown decks. I will be
sending off the reels for mastering to vinyl.
Ampex AG-440.
|
Great.
Cheers,
Chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Edwin Hurwitz
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:13 pm Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
In article <pQnpd.59105$Le1.1208388@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Chris Pickett <chris@sympatico.ca> wrote:
| Quote: |
Okay, well thanks for being frank. A lot of people talk about how old
studio gear is now available for a fraction of the original price, and
that's why I thought it would be enough (I mean, a 1" 8-track Studer A80
Mark II is on eBay right now for $1900 with zero bids, and I thought
that was pretty decent; the "buy-it-now" price is $2900).
|
This is true, but remember that back in the day, this stuff was way
expensive. Another thing to factor in is maintenance. What shape is this
thing in? People today bitch about computers being difficult, but the
fact of the matter is that every studio I worked at in back in the day
had people on call for tape deck and console calibration and
maintenance, if not on staff. Learning how to calibrate (and purchasing
the correct calibration tapes) was an investment on its own.
If you are trying to do this on the cheap, I would suggest that you
go digital and invest in good converters and software. The day to day
running costs are a lot less (you can get 150-200 gb drives for the cost
of a reel of 2" tape). Get a good analog mixdown deck if you want that,
but analog multitrack is not a good way to save money if you are not
already doing it.
just my 02c.
Edwin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chris Pickett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:12 am Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
Edwin Hurwitz wrote:
| Quote: | In article <pQnpd.59105$Le1.1208388@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Chris Pickett <chris@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Okay, well thanks for being frank. A lot of people talk about how old
studio gear is now available for a fraction of the original price, and
that's why I thought it would be enough (I mean, a 1" 8-track Studer A80
Mark II is on eBay right now for $1900 with zero bids, and I thought
that was pretty decent; the "buy-it-now" price is $2900).
This is true, but remember that back in the day, this stuff was way
expensive. Another thing to factor in is maintenance. What shape is this
thing in? People today bitch about computers being difficult, but the
fact of the matter is that every studio I worked at in back in the day
had people on call for tape deck and console calibration and
maintenance, if not on staff. Learning how to calibrate (and purchasing
the correct calibration tapes) was an investment on its own.
|
That particular model sounds like it's in good condition, however, I
realize that calibration and maintenance are a necessity. I'm willing
to learn how to do these things (and to become handy with a soldering
iron and all things electronic).
| Quote: | If you are trying to do this on the cheap, I would suggest that you
go digital and invest in good converters and software. The day to day
running costs are a lot less (you can get 150-200 gb drives for the cost
of a reel of 2" tape). Get a good analog mixdown deck if you want that,
but analog multitrack is not a good way to save money if you are not
already doing it.
|
Yeah ... digital can certainly be cheap, especially when you consider
how readily available music warez are. However, I work with and program
computers all day (I'm a grad student in computer science), and when it
comes to music, I just can't bear to deal with all this extra software
.... and upgrading computers ... and bugs ... it's totally demotivating
to me. I almost don't even want to use a computer-based sequencer, even
though it's probably the only practical option for MIDI. I know for
sure that I'll have fun with tape; it's something real, something that I
can touch ... I've had fun for years DJing with vinyl records and making
cassette recordings. There's also the aspect of unlimited control that
comes with digital stuff that just doesn't inspire me to be creative. I
don't really know how else to explain myself on this front ... is it
really that weird and/or naive?
Anyway, I am leaning towards a lower budget now, as I outlined in the
response to Mike. If for some reason I hate it / can't deal with it,
then I haven't wasted much money, and if I love it, then I'll do the
best I can with it and have a much better view of what I want / need.
Cheers,
Chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
S O'Neill
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:13 am Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
Chris Pickett wrote:
| Quote: | I don't really know how else to explain myself on this front ... is
it really that weird and/or naive?
|
No, that's very sensible, especially for a CS guy. :) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Rivers
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:13 am Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
In article <pQnpd.59105$Le1.1208388@news20.bellglobal.com> chris@sympatico.ca writes:
| Quote: | that's just what's been recommended so far.
|
Narrrow gage analog recorders are a bit easier to move (in every
sense of the word) and the "on line" crowd are more familiar with
them. I had a TASCAM 80-8 that I did a lot of good work on, but my
2" Ampex was a big step up, both in sound quality and in
"professionalism." People took me more seriously when I could stop
saying "I have a TASCAM recorder."
| Quote: | Tape
cost is moderately important; I don't know if I want to pay for 2" tape
(but would consider it).
|
How prolific are you? Or more important, how vain are you? Do you feel
that you need to save everything you record because you might like it
some day, or are you disciplined enough to say "that was a turkey,
I'll just record over it."? A half a dozen reels of 2" tape isn't a
bad investment for a project. 30 reels is strictly "major sensitive
artist" stuff.
| Quote: | Only because it [the Ghost] was the only thing I found and looking back in this
newsgroup I found a huge thread talking about how nice it is. No other
reason. I will look at Trident and MCI gear.
|
Compared to a Mackie, it'll be better in most respects, and that's why
you'll see it as a favorite among those who like to help others spend
their money. There are other good boards in that same class -
Soundtracks has a lot of fans, too. But analog consoles are kind of a
dying breed and some of the better ones have been scrapped to make
rack mounted channel strips, so at any given time when you decide to
look for one, you may not have many choices available for sale.
| Quote: | Okay. It's only that I've heard some things come through Mackie boards
and they gave it a quality I didn't really like; hard to describe since
I don't have much to compare with, I guess a bit dry and lifeless.
|
I've also heard some very good things coming out of Mackie boards. One
of the reasons why there's a lot of bad Mackie recordings is because
it's an inexpensive board and most of the people who use them don't
have a lot of experience or a lot of other good gear. Another reason
is that it's a little harder to get a great recording out of one
because it IS an inexpensive board and there have been some corners
cut and some design decisions made that orient it toward doing its
best job producing straight ahead rock music.
| Quote: | So, at the other end of the (entry-level) spectrum, I'm considering
limiting myself to a cheap 1/2" 8-track like a Tascam 38 or Otari 5050
MK-III 8, and a simple 8-channel mixer to go with it. This would force
me to use the crap stereo outs on the drum machine and synthesizer, but
at the same time give me something rather simple to cut my teeth on, as
it were.
|
That's actually not a bad approach. It also forces you to make
decisions as you go along, which gives you a better picture of how the
project will end up as you're working on it.
| Quote: | My only real fear is that if I happened to make something I liked, I
don't know if I could go and "make it better" at a later date
|
If you like it, why worry about making it better? Why not just do
something new that IS better?
| Quote: | The stereo outputs aren't
_that_ crap, but you can imagine that onboard mixers are worse than
external mixers.
|
Don't be too sure about that. When they only have to do one thing,
they can do it pretty well.
| Quote: | A lot of people talk about how old
studio gear is now available for a fraction of the original price, and
that's why I thought it would be enough (I mean, a 1" 8-track Studer A80
Mark II is on eBay right now for $1900 with zero bids, and I thought
that was pretty decent; the "buy-it-now" price is $2900).
|
This is true, but it doesn't follow for everything. In the days of the
$35,000 Studer, a console to go along with it didn't cost $3,000, it
cost $200,000, and those consoles are now available for $10,000 or
less. One thing that's both good and bad about cheap studio gear is
that some of it tends to hold its value better than expernsive studio
gear.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chris Pickett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:11 am Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
Mike Rivers wrote:
| Quote: | In article <pQnpd.59105$Le1.1208388@news20.bellglobal.com> chris@sympatico.ca writes:
that's just what's been recommended so far.
Narrrow gage analog recorders are a bit easier to move (in every
sense of the word) and the "on line" crowd are more familiar with
them. I had a TASCAM 80-8 that I did a lot of good work on, but my
2" Ampex was a big step up, both in sound quality and in
"professionalism." People took me more seriously when I could stop
saying "I have a TASCAM recorder."
|
One consideration is that right now, this is a (fairly serious) hobby
for weeknights and weekends; I don't ever imagine myself having clients
of either the paying or non-paying variety in my apartment, nor am I
pursuing a career in sound engineering. Basically I want to put out
some records that 10+ people like and am totally not expecting to make
any money here (ever, even if I buy gear costing multiple thousands of
dollars); the absolute best scenario would see me break even.
| Quote: | Tape
cost is moderately important; I don't know if I want to pay for 2" tape
(but would consider it).
How prolific are you? Or more important, how vain are you? Do you feel
that you need to save everything you record because you might like it
some day, or are you disciplined enough to say "that was a turkey,
I'll just record over it."? A half a dozen reels of 2" tape isn't a
bad investment for a project. 30 reels is strictly "major sensitive
artist" stuff.
|
My biggest flaw is that I'm a perfectionist, and it takes many takes for
me to get something "just right". In that respect, I'm thankful for
MIDI, but I'm also rather worried that I might start killing my tape by
recording over it ... and over it ... and over it.
Sorry, I should clarify. I intend to do most of the song-writing and
fooling around using my sequencer, and only go to tape when I feel I
have something that's really "very ready to record". I probably don't
want to sequence keyboard solos (quantization problems) or messing
around with effects (no MIDI on most analog effects), but still, there
won't be a lot of "maybe I could use this" material sitting around. At
this stage, the cost of a good enough tape deck (inc. shipping and
fixing it up) is probably more of a concern than the cost of tape.
| Quote: | So, at the other end of the (entry-level) spectrum, I'm considering
limiting myself to a cheap 1/2" 8-track like a Tascam 38 or Otari 5050
MK-III 8, and a simple 8-channel mixer to go with it. This would force
me to use the crap stereo outs on the drum machine and synthesizer, but
at the same time give me something rather simple to cut my teeth on, as
it were.
That's actually not a bad approach. It also forces you to make
decisions as you go along, which gives you a better picture of how the
project will end up as you're working on it.
|
I've always liked working with limited resources, it's somewhat of a
challenge, unless it's at the point where I'm banging my head on the
wall (which is the point I've reached with computer audio, and again,
those feel more like infinite resources to me).
| Quote: | My only real fear is that if I happened to make something I liked, I
don't know if I could go and "make it better" at a later date
If you like it, why worry about making it better? Why not just do
something new that IS better?
|
Yeah, okay, fair enough.
| Quote: | The stereo outputs aren't
_that_ crap, but you can imagine that onboard mixers are worse than
external mixers.
Don't be too sure about that. When they only have to do one thing,
they can do it pretty well.
|
Well, the onboard thing on the Alesis certainly sucks at panning, and if
you overload the mixer it sounds like shoe. The drums on the JoMoX are
positioned within the stereo field on the stereo outs; I probably don't
always want their opinion of where my drums should be. But it's not the
end of the world.
In the days of the
| Quote: | $35,000 Studer, a console to go along with it didn't cost $3,000, it
cost $200,000, and those consoles are now available for $10,000 or
less. One thing that's both good and bad about cheap studio gear is
that some of it tends to hold its value better than expernsive studio
gear.
|
On a related note, I've always had the (perhaps misguided) opinion that
the middle range of stuff just isn't really worth it in terms of what
you get for your dollar. It seems that for now I can only afford low or
middle end gear from this discussion, and so will take my ass to a
studio if I want high -- at least I'll have a better idea of what I want
when I get there. God, that just divided a whole bunch of people's
lives into three nice little categories ...
Chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EganMedia
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:18 pm Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
<< I just can't bear to deal with all this extra software
.... and upgrading computers ... and bugs ... it's totally demotivating
to me. >><BR><BR>
Wait until a bad voltage regulator in you 20 year old 80-8 makes the take up
reel motor suddenly run at half speed in the middle of fast forwarding a reel.
You'll wish you could give it the "three finger salute". Digital gear
certainly does have it's bugs and faults. But cheap, old analog gear is
probably going to be even less reliable, especially considering things like
capacitors getting leaky with old age, pinch rollers drying out and becoming
slippery uneven head wear, and noisy old pots and faders. If you like noisy
recordings you can always use shitty cable and cheap mic preamps. Good,
up-to-spec analog gear is quiet and transparent. OTOH, Master anything poorly
to cheap recycled vinyl and it will have the "vintage" pops and crackles so
often mislabeled "warmth".
I know this came off as harsh. There certainly is a lot of fun to be had with
analog gear. Just don't delude yourself into believing that a 20 year old,
narrow guage semi-pro analog deck (and it's matching Ramsa T820B console) will
cause you less grief than a good PC and an Mbox. If you're locked into MIDI
already, addding a huge analog component to your recording chain will almost
certainly double the odds equipment failure. A well tweaked computer (or
better yet a purpose-built stand alone HD recorder) can actually be pretty
reliable.
Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger W. Norman
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:18 pm Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
I have and seriously recommend a Soundtracs Solo console. You should be
able to find one for maybe $1200 to $1500, 24X8, six aux sends (all usable
at once), group inserts, etc., and you can look it up at
http://www.studiosys.demon.co.uk/mixing_consoles.htm
I've had mine for 12 years now and I still love it.
The baby brother can be found here
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23785&item=3765118078&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
and it's not a bad console. Doesn't feel quite as good, but I've heard lots
of good work done on a Topaz.
However, I just sold my Tascam 38 after a few years of never even touching
it again. I'd look for a higher quality analog recorder.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
"Chris Pickett" <chris@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:yRapd.37776$Ro.1611310@news20.bellglobal.com...
| Quote: | Chris Pickett wrote:
Hi,
I'm leaving the digital world except for MIDI sequencing, and need
some advice on mixers and a workable studio setup. I really just
don't like computers for audio, both in terms of the sound I
personally have been able to get from them, the amount of fun I have
while recording / setting things up (a negative amount). So don't try
to convince me otherwise! :)
So far, I've primarily looking at the Tascam 38 1/2" 8-track and
Tascam MS-16 1" 16-track machines as multitrack recorders.
I need some kind of (inline) mixer that will work with these and also
with my existing gear:
3 Technics turntables (6 mono outs)
1 Alesis Andromeda (16 outs)
1 JoMoX Airbase 99 (10 outs) -- I might replace this with a TR-808,
we'll see.
a bunch of analogue effects (not purchased yet, but I badly want them)
I want to make house, techno, ambient ... all sorts of electronic
music. Although it might be interesting in the future, microphones
aren't a necessity right now (my synthesizer is more than capable of
what I need).
Basically I'm looking for recommendations as to specific mixer models
as well as information on how I could wire everything together.
Naively it seems like I want a 32x8 mixer. Given that I don't want
any Mackie / Behringer / other similar quality gear, I think that
leaves me looking at a Ghost LE.
At the same time, that board is probably way too big and powerful and
expensive for what I want to do. I've been referred to the Tascam
M-300(B) line of mixers as having great sound. I think I could use a
Tascam M-312 to mix the drum machine outs, M-320 to mix the
synthesizer outs, and Tascam M-308 or plain DJ mixer to mix the
turntable outs. This seems workable, but I don't know how painful it
would be for recording (because I lack practical experience; I've just
been using the crappy stereo outs from these machines through a DJ
mixer into my PCMCIA sound card and doing it all on my computer). It
would also take some time to find all the right pieces ... that's not
such an issue.
Any other mixer series or tape machines that I should strongly be
considering? I want warm, beautiful, analog sound. I can't really
afford more than $2000 U.S. for mixers or $2000 U.S. for recorders.
Cheers,
Chris
http://www.sable.mcgill.ca/~cpicke/
P.S. Some recommendations on good phono pre-amps would be welcome; I
know there's a whole audiophile world devoted to that; I'd be willing
to spend up to $200 U.S. per pre-amp.
By the way, I should mention some other things:
1) I'm only considering used gear, and live in Montreal, Canada.
2) I have some other gear already (monitors, headphones, DJ mixer,
crappy digital DJ effects). I didn't post about it because I thought it
was sort of irrelevant.
3) I guess I need recommendations on 1/4" mixdown decks. I will be
sending off the reels for mastering to vinyl. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger W. Norman
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
I'd stay away from Scully 8 track RTRs, just on general principles. And I'd
stay away from Tascam units too, even though I owned a 38 for 10 years. Did
a good job, but it limited my abilities to do a better job.
I kinda agree with Mike Rivers on an Ampex 1200 (better than the 1100) 2"
and although a lot of clients won't want to pay the money for tape, at least
it can sound really good. It ain't light so you'll have to have someone
local who does studio calls for maintenance and repairs.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
"Chris Pickett" <chris@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:%Utpd.66364$Le1.1299637@news20.bellglobal.com...
| Quote: | Edwin Hurwitz wrote:
In article <pQnpd.59105$Le1.1208388@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Chris Pickett <chris@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Okay, well thanks for being frank. A lot of people talk about how old
studio gear is now available for a fraction of the original price, and
that's why I thought it would be enough (I mean, a 1" 8-track Studer A80
Mark II is on eBay right now for $1900 with zero bids, and I thought
that was pretty decent; the "buy-it-now" price is $2900).
This is true, but remember that back in the day, this stuff was way
expensive. Another thing to factor in is maintenance. What shape is this
thing in? People today bitch about computers being difficult, but the
fact of the matter is that every studio I worked at in back in the day
had people on call for tape deck and console calibration and
maintenance, if not on staff. Learning how to calibrate (and purchasing
the correct calibration tapes) was an investment on its own.
That particular model sounds like it's in good condition, however, I
realize that calibration and maintenance are a necessity. I'm willing
to learn how to do these things (and to become handy with a soldering
iron and all things electronic).
If you are trying to do this on the cheap, I would suggest that you
go digital and invest in good converters and software. The day to day
running costs are a lot less (you can get 150-200 gb drives for the cost
of a reel of 2" tape). Get a good analog mixdown deck if you want that,
but analog multitrack is not a good way to save money if you are not
already doing it.
Yeah ... digital can certainly be cheap, especially when you consider
how readily available music warez are. However, I work with and program
computers all day (I'm a grad student in computer science), and when it
comes to music, I just can't bear to deal with all this extra software
... and upgrading computers ... and bugs ... it's totally demotivating
to me. I almost don't even want to use a computer-based sequencer, even
though it's probably the only practical option for MIDI. I know for
sure that I'll have fun with tape; it's something real, something that I
can touch ... I've had fun for years DJing with vinyl records and making
cassette recordings. There's also the aspect of unlimited control that
comes with digital stuff that just doesn't inspire me to be creative. I
don't really know how else to explain myself on this front ... is it
really that weird and/or naive?
Anyway, I am leaning towards a lower budget now, as I outlined in the
response to Mike. If for some reason I hate it / can't deal with it,
then I haven't wasted much money, and if I love it, then I'll do the
best I can with it and have a much better view of what I want / need.
Cheers,
Chris |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scott Dorsey
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject:
Re: seeking advice on an analogue home studio setup |
|
|
EganMedia <eganmedia@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
I know this came off as harsh. There certainly is a lot of fun to be had with
analog gear. Just don't delude yourself into believing that a 20 year old,
narrow guage semi-pro analog deck (and it's matching Ramsa T820B console) will
cause you less grief than a good PC and an Mbox. If you're locked into MIDI
already, addding a huge analog component to your recording chain will almost
certainly double the odds equipment failure. A well tweaked computer (or
better yet a purpose-built stand alone HD recorder) can actually be pretty
reliable.
|
And note that you CAN buy a solid and reliable analogue machine. But it
is going to cost you a lot more than an 80-8 will. There are folks out
there who will pick up a 440-8 or something and replace all the capacitors,
bearings, etc, resurface the heads and all of the electrical contacts, and
sell you a solid and reliable machine. But you could buy a lot of standlone
HD recorders for the cost.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in