| Author |
Message |
blackburst@aol.com
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject:
Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
I run an access studio. The Board of Directors is making overtures
about going tapeless. This is workable in some ways: Playout will be on
server. "Live to tape" shows will be ingested straight to server. Shows
edited on NLEs will be dumped straight to server. Stuff in the remote
truck can be recorded on a hard drive and dumped to server. (Archiving
of all shows will be on DVD.)
The problem is acquisition. I can get cheap, easy to use and great
quality DV cameras for $300 apiece. Is there a cheap, easy to use
tapeless camcorder? Not DVD camcorders- they are write once, aren't
they?
Of course we'll have tapeless pro camcorders for staff and experienced
volunteers, but what about non-techies who want a mini camera?
Advice needed.
|
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|
 |
Richard Crowley
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:08 am Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
blackburst wrote ...
| Quote: | I run an access studio. The Board of Directors is making overtures
about going tapeless. This is workable in some ways: Playout will be
on
server. "Live to tape" shows will be ingested straight to server.
Shows
edited on NLEs will be dumped straight to server. Stuff in the remote
truck can be recorded on a hard drive and dumped to server. (Archiving
of all shows will be on DVD.)
The problem is acquisition. I can get cheap, easy to use and great
quality DV cameras for $300 apiece. Is there a cheap, easy to use
tapeless camcorder? Not DVD camcorders- they are write once, aren't
they?
Of course we'll have tapeless pro camcorders for staff and experienced
volunteers, but what about non-techies who want a mini camera?
|
IMHO, at this particular point in the life-cycle of digital video,
the economies of scale have not reached the point where we can
expect to see hard-drive camcorders at a consumer level.
I can't think of any good technical reason why Sony or Panny or
somebody couldn't make a camcorder with a place to plug in a
laptop hard-drive (in lieu of a mini-DV tape transport). But they
apparently think there isn't a large enough market to develop a
product like that. Too bad, IMHO.
I would not think that the DVD camcorders are suitable for any
but the most low-end access use. |
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|
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AnthonyR
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:51 am Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote in message
news:11jbcii718seg73@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | blackburst wrote ...
I run an access studio. The Board of Directors is making overtures
about going tapeless. This is workable in some ways: Playout will be on
server. "Live to tape" shows will be ingested straight to server. Shows
edited on NLEs will be dumped straight to server. Stuff in the remote
truck can be recorded on a hard drive and dumped to server. (Archiving
of all shows will be on DVD.)
The problem is acquisition. I can get cheap, easy to use and great
quality DV cameras for $300 apiece. Is there a cheap, easy to use
tapeless camcorder? Not DVD camcorders- they are write once, aren't
they?
Of course we'll have tapeless pro camcorders for staff and experienced
volunteers, but what about non-techies who want a mini camera?
IMHO, at this particular point in the life-cycle of digital video,
the economies of scale have not reached the point where we can
expect to see hard-drive camcorders at a consumer level.
I can't think of any good technical reason why Sony or Panny or
somebody couldn't make a camcorder with a place to plug in a
laptop hard-drive (in lieu of a mini-DV tape transport). But they
apparently think there isn't a large enough market to develop a
product like that. Too bad, IMHO.
I would not think that the DVD camcorders are suitable for any
but the most low-end access use.
|
I also agree, there should be tapeless camcorders on the market already,
with
removeable HD's not miniDVD discs.
But you can buy external HD devices to plug the camera into using a 1394
wire to capture to HD at the same time.
That market will skyrocket in the next few years because camera manufactures
were slow to fill the need.
Richard, i respect your perfectionism when it come to highest quality
possible video capture. And also agree about
the miniDVD camcorders. Although for capturing family videos, they still are
a huge leap forward to what I had growing up which was
8mm film, 3 minutes at a time, needed developing and had scratches and dust
after a while not to mention, film was just difficult to set up view and
enjoy.
So compared to that, I think we both agree, a miniDVD camcorder even with
it's 20 minutes limitation, and mpeg capture, limited editing etc..
is so much better than home movies enthusiasts and hobbyist had to use in
the past generations. Right? :)
AnthonyR. |
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Ryan Boni
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:39 am Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
Hey blackburst,
It's always good to see others who are in the same boat as I am!!
Unfortunately as Richard & Anthony said there isn't much yet in the low
end for tapeless acquistion.
We're looking to finally getting around next year to putting the
infrastructure in place at our Public Access facility to be able to use
a server and link our edit suites, control room & playback and get as
close to tapeless as possible. Especially now that TB storage drives
are down into the $1000 range.
However, we've had horrible experiences with lower end equipment
(durability, lack of respect for equipment on the part of users, etc.)
with any attempt we've made to go that direction, so I can't really
speak from too much experience there. My purchase of a GL-1 quite a
few years back still haunts me as one of my worst purchases during my
tenure here (although it gives a great picture in its current job of
being suspended from our studio ceiling for overhead shots during some
programs.)
Anyway, getting back on topic...
We've been experimenting with the FireStore on our Sony DSR-250 and
plan to buy another for our JVC 5000 next year, I imagine as these
items get more use out there, some manufacturer will create one that
sticks onto the battery slot of consumer models, or something similar
and sticks into the Firewire of the camcorder.
Probably the best current available option is an external capture
device like the Laird CapDiv. Although its $900 price tag is probably
a lot more than you'll want to spend for use with a $300 camcorder.
Ryan
-----
Ryan Boni
Public Access Director
Peters Township Community Television |
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Richard Crowley
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:41 am Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
"AnthonyR" wrote ...
| Quote: | Richard, i respect your perfectionism when it come to highest quality
possible video capture. And also agree about
the miniDVD camcorders. Although for capturing family videos, they
still are a huge leap forward to what I had growing up which was
8mm film, 3 minutes at a time, needed developing and had scratches and
dust after a while not to mention, film was just difficult to set up
view and enjoy.
So compared to that, I think we both agree, a miniDVD camcorder even
with it's 20 minutes limitation, and mpeg capture, limited editing
etc..
is so much better than home movies enthusiasts and hobbyist had to use
in the past generations. Right? :)
|
I am infamous in these circles for my skepticism of temporally-
compressed formats (video and audio).
According to a post just yesterday in rec.arts.movies.production.sound,
Kodak recently announted a new super-8 film stock for professional
use. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Toby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:57 pm Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote in message
news:11jbcii718seg73@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | blackburst wrote ...
I run an access studio. The Board of Directors is making overtures
about going tapeless. This is workable in some ways: Playout will be on
server. "Live to tape" shows will be ingested straight to server. Shows
edited on NLEs will be dumped straight to server. Stuff in the remote
truck can be recorded on a hard drive and dumped to server. (Archiving
of all shows will be on DVD.)
The problem is acquisition. I can get cheap, easy to use and great
quality DV cameras for $300 apiece. Is there a cheap, easy to use
tapeless camcorder? Not DVD camcorders- they are write once, aren't
they?
Of course we'll have tapeless pro camcorders for staff and experienced
volunteers, but what about non-techies who want a mini camera?
IMHO, at this particular point in the life-cycle of digital video,
the economies of scale have not reached the point where we can
expect to see hard-drive camcorders at a consumer level.
I can't think of any good technical reason why Sony or Panny or
somebody couldn't make a camcorder with a place to plug in a
laptop hard-drive (in lieu of a mini-DV tape transport). But they
apparently think there isn't a large enough market to develop a
product like that. Too bad, IMHO.
|
Panasonic is going the flash memory route with P2, but it's not really
economical yet. However Samsung just announced single 4Gb flash memory chips
using a 50nm (I believe) technology, so it is on the way.
Toby |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AnthonyR
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
"Toby" <zdftokyo@gool.com> wrote in message
news:433673bf$0$189$bb4e3ad8@newscene.com...
| Quote: |
"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote in message
news:11jbcii718seg73@corp.supernews.com...
blackburst wrote ...
I run an access studio. The Board of Directors is making overtures
about going tapeless. This is workable in some ways: Playout will be on
server. "Live to tape" shows will be ingested straight to server. Shows
edited on NLEs will be dumped straight to server. Stuff in the remote
truck can be recorded on a hard drive and dumped to server. (Archiving
of all shows will be on DVD.)
The problem is acquisition. I can get cheap, easy to use and great
quality DV cameras for $300 apiece. Is there a cheap, easy to use
tapeless camcorder? Not DVD camcorders- they are write once, aren't
they?
Of course we'll have tapeless pro camcorders for staff and experienced
volunteers, but what about non-techies who want a mini camera?
IMHO, at this particular point in the life-cycle of digital video,
the economies of scale have not reached the point where we can
expect to see hard-drive camcorders at a consumer level.
I can't think of any good technical reason why Sony or Panny or
somebody couldn't make a camcorder with a place to plug in a
laptop hard-drive (in lieu of a mini-DV tape transport). But they
apparently think there isn't a large enough market to develop a
product like that. Too bad, IMHO.
Panasonic is going the flash memory route with P2, but it's not really
economical yet. However Samsung just announced single 4Gb flash memory
chips using a 50nm (I believe) technology, so it is on the way.
Toby
|
Hey Toby,
That's good to hear. I wonder why they are going for flash memory over tiny
hard drives?
I would think a small 20gb or 40gb unit the size of an ipod would be better
but I guess
from a manufacturing perspective, flash memory should have less repair
issues than hard drives
which are mechanical parts as opposed to purely electronic components.
All we really need is enough space to be comparable to a tape, if the flash
is removable or
enough to do about 4-5 hours if it's not. Maybe it can be uploaded to a
bigger unit on the field
and free up the camera flash to capture more?
But I still think leaving the miniDV tape also is a good idea as a backup
source.
I wouldn't want all my capture work just on flash memory alone. One static
discharge
from walking on the carpet and touching your chip and all your work could be
gone. :)
AnthonyR. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AnthonyR
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote in message
news:11jbp1e13scru92@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | "AnthonyR" wrote ...
Richard, i respect your perfectionism when it come to highest quality
possible video capture. And also agree about
the miniDVD camcorders. Although for capturing family videos, they still
are a huge leap forward to what I had growing up which was
8mm film, 3 minutes at a time, needed developing and had scratches and
dust after a while not to mention, film was just difficult to set up view
and enjoy.
So compared to that, I think we both agree, a miniDVD camcorder even with
it's 20 minutes limitation, and mpeg capture, limited editing etc..
is so much better than home movies enthusiasts and hobbyist had to use in
the past generations. Right? :)
I am infamous in these circles for my skepticism of temporally-
compressed formats (video and audio).
According to a post just yesterday in rec.arts.movies.production.sound,
Kodak recently announted a new super-8 film stock for professional
use.
|
Richard,
How interesting, new super 8 film from kodak, hmmm?
Poor kodak actually, they are victims of technology. They try and try to
move over to digital photography to maintain their cominant position in the
field but
the days of film are in the past, and they don't have a monopoly lead in the
digital market.
Maybe they now feel, if they can bring back film? Can't blame them for
trying stuff.
It's tuff when technology finds better ways to do stuff and old ways no
longer are needed.
Sort of like when pampers were invented, lol Diaper Service slowly dwindled
away.
Same for the milkman. :)
AnthonyR. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackburst@aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
Ryan Boni wrote:
| Quote: | Hey blackburst,
It's always good to see others who are in the same boat as I am!!
|
I guess we are now an underserved market. The major manufacturers
ignore us and the minors all strive to break through to the biggies.
Even the public access newsgroup is dead.
| Quote: | Unfortunately as Richard & Anthony said there isn't much yet in the low
end for tapeless acquistion.
|
That's my point. It's here for the pro user, but not for prosumer yet.
DV seems to be about the best way to go. Jump to DVCAM or DVCPRO and
you quintuple the cost.
| Quote: |
We're looking to finally getting around next year to putting the
infrastructure in place at our Public Access facility to be able to use
a server and link our edit suites, control room & playback and get as
close to tapeless as possible. Especially now that TB storage drives
are down into the $1000 range.
|
We were lucky to get a building already wired with network. A few
managed switchers and routers, and we're on our way.
| Quote: |
However, we've had horrible experiences with lower end equipment
(durability, lack of respect for equipment on the part of users, etc.)
with any attempt we've made to go that direction, so I can't really
speak from too much experience there.
|
I budget with a certain amount of attrition in mind. Look, we can spend
$3000 to get a semi-pro camcorder with dual XLRs, but heavy, lots of
menmu options, etc. If someone breaks one, we're down $3k. But for the
same money, I can get 7 or 8 of the minicams. Anybody can use them,
they produce great pix, and you can plug mic and phones in. So I get a
few cheapies and a few better units.
My purchase of a GL-1 quite a
| Quote: | few years back still haunts me as one of my worst purchases during my
tenure here (although it gives a great picture in its current job of
being suspended from our studio ceiling for overhead shots during some
programs.)
|
Ruh-roh, Rorge...I have a volunteer who wants to donate one of those
and get a tax writeoff. What's wrong with them?
| Quote: |
Anyway, getting back on topic...
We've been experimenting with the FireStore on our Sony DSR-250 and
plan to buy another for our JVC 5000 next year, I imagine as these
items get more use out there, some manufacturer will create one that
sticks onto the battery slot of consumer models, or something similar
and sticks into the Firewire of the camcorder.
|
it ALL filters down in time. I LOVE to have that hard tape in my back
pocket or in my archive, but I can live with temp storage.
| Quote: |
Probably the best current available option is an external capture
device like the Laird CapDiv. Although its $900 price tag is probably
a lot more than you'll want to spend for use with a $300 camcorder.
|
And a bit cumbersome. But a possibility. I just might stick with DV and
DVCAM for acquisition until the prices all-in-one temp recorders come
down.
| Quote: |
Ryan
-----
Ryan Boni
Public Access Director
Peters Township Community Television |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Toby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
"AnthonyR" <nomail@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:IQAZe.2057$wf6.168146@twister.nyc.rr.com...
| Quote: |
"Toby" <zdftokyo@gool.com> wrote in message
news:433673bf$0$189$bb4e3ad8@newscene.com...
"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote in message
news:11jbcii718seg73@corp.supernews.com...
blackburst wrote ...
I run an access studio. The Board of Directors is making overtures
about going tapeless. This is workable in some ways: Playout will be on
server. "Live to tape" shows will be ingested straight to server. Shows
edited on NLEs will be dumped straight to server. Stuff in the remote
truck can be recorded on a hard drive and dumped to server. (Archiving
of all shows will be on DVD.)
The problem is acquisition. I can get cheap, easy to use and great
quality DV cameras for $300 apiece. Is there a cheap, easy to use
tapeless camcorder? Not DVD camcorders- they are write once, aren't
they?
Of course we'll have tapeless pro camcorders for staff and experienced
volunteers, but what about non-techies who want a mini camera?
IMHO, at this particular point in the life-cycle of digital video,
the economies of scale have not reached the point where we can
expect to see hard-drive camcorders at a consumer level.
I can't think of any good technical reason why Sony or Panny or
somebody couldn't make a camcorder with a place to plug in a
laptop hard-drive (in lieu of a mini-DV tape transport). But they
apparently think there isn't a large enough market to develop a
product like that. Too bad, IMHO.
Panasonic is going the flash memory route with P2, but it's not really
economical yet. However Samsung just announced single 4Gb flash memory
chips using a 50nm (I believe) technology, so it is on the way.
Toby
Hey Toby,
That's good to hear. I wonder why they are going for flash memory over
tiny hard drives?
I would think a small 20gb or 40gb unit the size of an ipod would be
better but I guess
from a manufacturing perspective, flash memory should have less repair
issues than hard drives
which are mechanical parts as opposed to purely electronic components.
All we really need is enough space to be comparable to a tape, if the
flash is removable or
enough to do about 4-5 hours if it's not. Maybe it can be uploaded to a
bigger unit on the field
and free up the camera flash to capture more?
But I still think leaving the miniDV tape also is a good idea as a backup
source.
I wouldn't want all my capture work just on flash memory alone. One static
discharge
from walking on the carpet and touching your chip and all your work could
be gone. :)
AnthonyR.
|
Hi Anthony,
Flash memory is stable. The P2 cards are like PCMCIA cards, hot-swappable,
and the camera holds 5 of them. They don't need any time to spin up, no
power source, and no delicate heads to hit the platens if you drop them. The
fly in the ointment right now is the price--I heard that they are $1750 each
for the 8 gig cards. I believe they hold about 40 minutes worth of video at
25 Mb/sec. Of course in a couple of years they are expecting to have 32 or
64 gig cards.
The nice thing is that if you are editing non-linear you just plug them in
to a reader and have immediate random access--no digitizing necessary. For
archiving they can be dumped to tape, but my company--which is beta-testing
the system for Panasonic in Europe--figured out that it is actually cheaper
to dump them directly to HDDs. One 300 gig HDD is cheaper than the tapes to
archive the same amount of material, and the price is only going to go down.
Once you have enough cards you don't have to buy tapes anymore, and you can
save only the material that you need--no more 30 min tapes saved with only
10 mins of good material on them.
Panasonic has already introduced this system in their latest prosumer HD
cam, but the camera is $6000 and the cards are also monstrously expensive,
so we'll need a couple of years until this makes it to the real consumer
market.
And of course there's Sony with XDcam, which is now compatible with Avid for
editing...
Toby |
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| Back to top |
|
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AnthonyR
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
"Toby" <kymarto123@ybb.ne.jpp> wrote in message
news:43380164$0$6806$bb4e3ad8@newscene.com...
| Quote: |
Hi Anthony,
Flash memory is stable. The P2 cards are like PCMCIA cards, hot-swappable,
and the camera holds 5 of them. They don't need any time to spin up, no
power source, and no delicate heads to hit the platens if you drop them.
The fly in the ointment right now is the price--I heard that they are
$1750 each for the 8 gig cards. I believe they hold about 40 minutes worth
of video at 25 Mb/sec. Of course in a couple of years they are expecting
to have 32 or 64 gig cards.
|
Thanks for the info Toby,
Yes, this appears to be better, you're right.
Price is the obstacle now, but that will come down as they made and sold.
Like all things electronic.
Remember the first RAM Modules? 1 gb of RAM in a PC in the 90's would have
cost a fortune.
So yes, I see the light, 64 gb flash card in a camera slot with a second one
as a backup, nice!!
| Quote: | The nice thing is that if you are editing non-linear you just plug them in
to a reader and have immediate random access--no digitizing necessary. For
archiving they can be dumped to tape, but my company--which is
beta-testing the system for Panasonic in Europe--figured out that it is
actually cheaper to dump them directly to HDDs. One 300 gig HDD is cheaper
than the tapes to archive the same amount of material, and the price is
only going to go down. Once you have enough cards you don't have to buy
tapes anymore, and you can save only the material that you need--no more
30 min tapes saved with only 10 mins of good material on them.
|
So using a 300gb HDD for long tern storage sounds tempting, but is it as
reliable as tape?
What if you plug it in one day and it doesn't spin up? I guess it can go bad
just sitting there from what i read online.
What about backing up the video data on big size data backup tape system?
would that be cheaper than a lot of little tapes?
| Quote: | Panasonic has already introduced this system in their latest prosumer HD
cam, but the camera is $6000 and the cards are also monstrously expensive,
so we'll need a couple of years until this makes it to the real consumer
market.
And of course there's Sony with XDcam, which is now compatible with Avid
for editing...
Toby
|
Yeah, i can't wait for stuff to trickle down to consumer prices, that's
where I fit in. :)
AnthonyR. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Van Dyk
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
Marshall Mcluhan famously observed that every art form is really just an
obsolete technology. Think about it--
So Super 8mm Film is now "art". There are wedding videographers who now
offer, as an expensive extra, some 8mm film shot of your wedding, and
then transferred to the DVD.
AnthonyR wrote:
[quote]"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote in message
news:11jbp1e13scru92@corp.supernews.com...
"AnthonyR" wrote ...
Richard, i respect your perfectionism when it come to highest quality
possible video capture. And also agree about
the miniDVD camcorders. Although for capturing family videos, they still
are a huge leap forward to what I had growing up which was
8mm film, 3 minutes at a time, needed developing and had scratches and
dust after a while not to mention, film was just difficult to set up view
and enjoy.
So compared to that, I think we both agree, a miniDVD camcorder even with
it's 20 minutes limitation, and mpeg capture, limited editing etc..
is so much better than home movies enthusiasts and hobbyist had to use in
the past generations. Right? :)
I am infamous in these circles for my skepticism of temporally-
compressed formats (video and audio).
According to a post just yesterday in rec.arts.movies.production.sound,
Kodak recently announted a new super-8 film stock for professional
use.
Richard,
How interesting, new super 8 film from kodak, hmmm?
Poor kodak actually, they are victims of technology. They try and try to
move over to digital photography to maintain their cominant position in the
field but
the days of film are in the past, and they don't have a monopoly lead in the
digital market.
Maybe they now feel, if they can bring back film? Can't blame them for
trying stuff.
It's tuff when technology finds better ways to do stuff and old ways no
longer are needed.
Sort of like when pampers were invented, lol Diaper Service slowly dwindled
away.
Same for the milkman. :)
AnthonyR.
[/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AnthonyR
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:41 am Post subject:
Re: Tapeless for Access? |
|
|
"Bill Van Dyk" <trash@christian-horizons.org> wrote in message
news:76mdnSGu4LVQUNbeRVn-sg@golden.net...
[quote]Marshall Mcluhan famously observed that every art form is really just an
obsolete technology. Think about it--
So Super 8mm Film is now "art". There are wedding videographers who now
offer, as an expensive extra, some 8mm film shot of your wedding, and then
transferred to the DVD.
[/quote]
Wouldn't it be easier to just add the "old movie" effect in post rather than
go through the trouble to film in 8mm, develop and then transfer (which is
no easy task to do correctly) to digital just to get the look of a bad 8mm
film transfer?
It would still give the same results, probably better if done right.
But I guess then they couldn't charge extra? Or maybe they are selling the
fact that film might last longer as a storage medium than tape and dvd?
Interesting post, irregardless.
Thanks Bill for the info.
AnthonyR. |
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