| Author |
Message |
Phil Allison
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:57 am Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
"maxdm"
| Quote: | "Phil Allison"
try recapping the electrolytics in anything that is over 10 years of
age.. tube or solid state.. and you will notice a dramatic change in
the sound.
** New age mysticism, pyramids and crystals - ie a load of
stinking
shite.
You have obviously never recapped an old preamp or amp or compressor
etc. I have. and there is a big difference in sound, power supply
included.
|
** Pure self delusion.
| Quote: | It is common knowledge that electrolytics degrade with age, especially
when left uncharged.
|
** Electros have no virtually inductance and which can never increase,
only the ESR rises at the ends of a cap's useful life - and this can be 30
years or more.
| Quote: | if you don't notice a difference than chances are that you have not
got the ears to be an engineer or be involved in audio.
|
** Typical audiophool wanker's line of smug bullshit.
| Quote: | You show no proof to your argument,
|
** I have quoted you the facts - disprove them if you can.
OTOH you have produced noting but unsupported drivel.
| Quote: | which leads me to believe you have
no significant working experience with audio circuits either.
|
** Oh - only about 40 years worth, first as a hobby then full time work
in service and design of audio electronics - both tube and solid state.
| Quote: | Continue to use old equipment that sounds mushy and distorted, if you
like but keep your silly comments regarding pyramids to yourself.
|
** Go stick the nearest pyramid up your backside - you posturing
dangerous fool.
............. Phil
|
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| Back to top |
|
 |
Ben Bradley
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:14 am Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
On 26 Nov 2004 16:31:07 -0800, maxdimario@aliceposta.it (maxdm) wrote:
| Quote: | "Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:<30mttpF31o60qU1@uni-berlin.de>...
"maxdm"
... { smoe new age crap snipped }
........... Phil
You have obviously never recapped an old preamp or amp or compressor
|
You have obviously never gone to http://groups.google.com, clicked
on Advanced groups search, and put in Phil Allison for author. If you
had, you'd find out that ...
My God, Phil is now trolling AAPL-S! God help him, they'll eat him
alive and feed his bones to their dogs... NO troll deserves THAT!
| Quote: | ...
Continue to use old equipment that sounds mushy and distorted, if you
like but keep your silly comments regarding pyramids to yourself.
|
-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley |
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| Back to top |
|
|
Phil Allison
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:14 am Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
"Ben Bradley"
"Phil Allison"
| Quote: |
You have obviously never gone to http://groups.google.com, clicked
on Advanced groups search, and put in Phil Allison for author. If you
had, you'd find out that ...
My God, Phil is now trolling AAPL-S! God help him, they'll eat him
alive and feed his bones to their dogs... NO troll deserves THAT!
|
** Got news for you fuckhead - I have been posting regularly on AAPLS
for several years.
That wasteland of a NG is chocked up with scumbag equipment dealers on the
make and anencephalic fader jocks posing as technical experts -
including a few ape brained ones from Canada.
I just rattle their cages now and then with a few unpalatable technical
facts and personal assessments.
............... Phil |
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|
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maxdm
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:16 pm Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
| Quote: |
** Go stick the nearest pyramid up your backside - you posturing
dangerous fool.
............ Phil
Gee ...40 years of experience and this is the way you deal with |
technical issues?
who is posturing here??
I will give some real-world examples:
As you wrote after 30 years or so (v72 have an average age of 45
years??) the capacitor degrades.
Esr goes out of spec, capacitance goes down, mechanical problems due
to drying up oxidization etc.
generally speaking they go out of spec.
some caps only have a shelf life of 5 years or so depending on
temperature and storage conditions. I was just reading the specs while
shopping for capacitors a week ago.
Some V72's you buy have been in storage unused for years.
I have recapped a class A Single ended parallel power amp that is less
than 10 years old which I bought used and was going to sell because of
mushy high end poor soundstaging etc.
With the new caps the highs came back (no feedback in circuit) and the
amp works very nicely.
A 40 year old U67 I have lacked punch, definition and smeared
transients.
soft and mushy (sound familiar?)
I selected the best out 15 different EF86/806 tubes and the sound
improved..to a point.
One of the top experts on Neumanns worldwide advised me not to change
the original decoupling cap, since he maintained that with the low
current and voltages inside the mic those caps are virtually eternal.
I changed the cap (still had more than rated capacitance) with a new
one and the mic is now amazing. excellent for lead vocals and even
drums, whereas before it made everything mushy and distant--sounding.
I still have the old cap for resale of the mic just in case etc.
I have a 50's V72 that I re-capped and the depth, hardness,
high-end/transient response improved quite a bit.
The other V72's I have sound a bit mushy on the high end compared to
the recapped one.
If someone wants to hear the effect of changing different power
supply smoothing caps on a V72 or other class a cicuit try this.
Get a 1 uF 400v cap and put it in parallel with the smoothing cap
connected to the output stage. You will hear a different high end
response depending on the circuit..this is due to the different
esr/resonance/hysteresis characteristics of the film cap vs. old
worn-out cap.
Get a new electrolytic cap and put it in parallel to the old one (as
long as the old one is not leaky) temporarily. You will hear a
difference in the response of the pre.
You will hear less of a difference on circuits that have a higher
degree of power-supply rejection (such as op-amps, class ab, high
feedback etc.)
Class A circuits wil benefit, though. |
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| Back to top |
|
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Phil Allison
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:16 pm Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
"maxdm"
| Quote: | Gee ...40 years of experience and this is the way you deal with
technical issues?
|
** Electros have no virtually inductance and which can never increase,
only the ESR rises at the ends of a cap's useful life - and this can be 30
years or more.
| Quote: | if you don't notice a difference than chances are that you have not
got the ears to be an engineer or be involved in audio.
|
** Typical audiophool wanker's line of smug bullshit.
| Quote: | You show no proof to your argument,
|
** I have quoted you the facts - disprove them if you can.
OTOH you have produced noting but unsupported drivel.
| Quote: | which leads me to believe you have
no significant working experience with audio circuits either.
|
** Oh - only about 40 years worth, first as a hobby then full time work
in service and design of audio electronics - both tube and solid state.
| Quote: | Gee ...40 years of experience and this is the way you deal with
technical issues?
|
| Quote: | Continue to use old equipment that sounds mushy and distorted, if you
like but keep your silly comments regarding pyramids to yourself.
|
** Go stick the nearest pyramid up your backside - you posturing
dangerous fool.
............. Phil |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chel van Gennip
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:07 pm Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:41:53 +0100, Phil Allison wrote:
| Quote: | "maxdm"
Gee ...40 years of experience and this is the way you deal with
technical issues?
** Electros have no virtually inductance and which can never increase,
only the ESR rises at the ends of a cap's useful life - and this can
be 30 years or more.
if you don't notice a difference than chances are that you have not got
the ears to be an engineer or be involved in audio.
** Typical audiophool wanker's line of smug bullshit.
You show no proof to your argument,
** I have quoted you the facts - disprove them if you can.
OTOH you have produced noting but unsupported drivel.
which leads me to believe you have
no significant working experience with audio circuits either.
** Oh - only about 40 years worth, first as a hobby then full time
work in service and design of audio electronics - both tube and solid
state.
|
Phil, in my 40 years of experience in electronics, I learned there are
people with very sensitive ears who dislike facts and measurements. You
recognize them if you see them changing capacitors in a 45 years old
microphone preamp or changing capacitors in a less than 10 years old class
A Single ended parallel power amp.
I think you better avoid the discussion, as you should also avoid 45 years
old microphone preamps or class A Single ended parallel power amps.
45 years ago Telefunken was one of the best designers and manufacturers
of electronics. Because they went bankrupt, this leading position was
lost and they were not able to follow developments the last decades.
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul Stamler
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:09 am Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
| Quote: | On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:41:53 +0100, Phil Allison wrote:
"maxdm"
Gee ...40 years of experience and this is the way you deal with
technical issues?
** Electros have no virtually inductance and which can never increase,
|
It has no virtually inductance and can never increase. Hmm. Neat trick.
Typical inductances of new electrolytics:
100uF/35-50V: .22-.31uH
100uF/450V: .27-.32uH
330uF/35-100V: .15-.3uH
1000uF/35-50V: .15-.3uH
3300uF/35-50V: .1-.27uH
In the latter case, that's enough for the resonant frequency (above which
the inductance predominates) to be as low as 5.3-8.6kHz, well within the
audio range.
Peace,
Paul |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil Allison
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:09 am Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
"Paul Stamler"
Phil Allison wrote:
| Quote: | ** Electros have no virtually inductance and which can never increase,
Typical inductances of new electrolytics:
100uF/35-50V: .22-.31uH
100uF/450V: .27-.32uH
330uF/35-100V: .15-.3uH
1000uF/35-50V: .15-.3uH
3300uF/35-50V: .1-.27uH
|
| Quote: | An example: a 1000uF 50V FC series electrolytic has a resonant frequency
of 9.3kHz, and an ESR of
about 0.18 ohms. So from 9.3kHz on up, it's essentially an inductor with a
small
resistance in series.
|
** That is *completely false* - electro caps are ***NOT*** inductive.
The 1000uF, 50 volt Panasonic FC series cap you quoted is speced at *0.034*
ohms impedance at *100 kHz* - which even at that frequency consists
mostly of resistance ( ie its ESR). The frequency where the component
becomes effectively an inductor ( due ONLY to the existence of its
connecting leads) is above 500kHz.
See: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ABA0000CE22.pdf
| Quote: | In general, bigger caps (more uF, that is) have lower resonance points;
3300uF caps seem to cluster around 7kHz.
|
** A Panasonic 3,300 uF, 35 volt, FC cap has a speced impedance of * 0.015
* ohms at *100kHz.*
See: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ABA0000CE22.pdf
| Quote: | I don't know what the resonance point of the caps in the V72 might be, but
I'm confident it's way, way less thank 1MHz. And like I said, above the
resonance point, the cap is for all intents and purposes an inductor.
|
** Strange indeed then how SMPS manage to work so well using only electros
to filter and suppress harmonics up to several MHz from the output !!!
The TRUTH is that the effective inductance of any cap, including electros,
is due to the length and spacing of its connecting wires. A few inches of
PCB track or hand wiring will have so much inductance as to TOTALLY swamp
that due to the cap itself.
** How about you reply to the facts and stop cowering ??????????
Using the data published by Panasonic the inductance of their 3300 uF, 50
volt FC cap is less than 23nH !!!!
23 nH is the inductance of 1 inch of straight wire.
YOUR claim - and nobody else's - that electros behave like an inductor
above the frequency where the impedance falls to its minimum is FALSE.
Go check an ACTUAL impedance curve and see that the Q factor is incredibly
low.
Go put some electros across the output of signal generator set to 100kHz and
see for yourself !!!
................ Phil |
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| Back to top |
|
|
Mark
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:19 am Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
maxdimario@aliceposta.it (maxdm) wrote in message news:<25150933.0411270318.42477a7@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: |
** Go stick the nearest pyramid up your backside - you posturing
dangerous fool.
............ Phil
Gee ...40 years of experience and this is the way you deal with
technical issues?
who is posturing here??
I will give some real-world examples:
As you wrote after 30 years or so (v72 have an average age of 45
years??) the capacitor degrades.
Esr goes out of spec, capacitance goes down, mechanical problems due
to drying up oxidization etc.
generally speaking they go out of spec.
some caps only have a shelf life of 5 years or so depending on
temperature and storage conditions. I was just reading the specs while
shopping for capacitors a week ago.
Some V72's you buy have been in storage unused for years.
I have recapped a class A Single ended parallel power amp that is less
than 10 years old which I bought used and was going to sell because of
mushy high end poor soundstaging etc.
With the new caps the highs came back (no feedback in circuit) and the
amp works very nicely.
A 40 year old U67 I have lacked punch, definition and smeared
transients.
soft and mushy (sound familiar?)
I selected the best out 15 different EF86/806 tubes and the sound
improved..to a point.
One of the top experts on Neumanns worldwide advised me not to change
the original decoupling cap, since he maintained that with the low
current and voltages inside the mic those caps are virtually eternal.
I changed the cap (still had more than rated capacitance) with a new
one and the mic is now amazing. excellent for lead vocals and even
drums, whereas before it made everything mushy and distant--sounding.
I still have the old cap for resale of the mic just in case etc.
I have a 50's V72 that I re-capped and the depth, hardness,
high-end/transient response improved quite a bit.
The other V72's I have sound a bit mushy on the high end compared to
the recapped one.
If someone wants to hear the effect of changing different power
supply smoothing caps on a V72 or other class a cicuit try this.
Get a 1 uF 400v cap and put it in parallel with the smoothing cap
connected to the output stage. You will hear a different high end
response depending on the circuit..this is due to the different
esr/resonance/hysteresis characteristics of the film cap vs. old
worn-out cap.
Get a new electrolytic cap and put it in parallel to the old one (as
long as the old one is not leaky) temporarily. You will hear a
difference in the response of the pre.
You will hear less of a difference on circuits that have a higher
degree of power-supply rejection (such as op-amps, class ab, high
feedback etc.)
Class A circuits wil benefit, though.
|
You seem to feel that the ripple current caused by the audio will
cause a distortion if the bypassing cap is unable to smooth it out.
But consider that the ripple current caused by the rectified 120 Hz is
typically orders of magnitude larger. This is ESPECIALLY true for a
mic pre where the signal currents and voltages are very small.
Therefore, as the bypassing cap wears out, the predominant symptom
will be an increase in power supply hum.
Are you sure that the wonderfull improvements you are hearing are not
due to a reduction in power supply hum. A measurment or two would be
nice to really pin down the cause of the improvements that you are
hearing.
And not that it matters but, I have a graduate degree in electical
engineering and also have been repairing audio equipment (now as a
hobby) for over 35 years.
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chel van Gennip
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:19 am Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:23:15 +0100, Paul Stamler wrote:
| Quote: | It has no virtually inductance and can never increase. Hmm. Neat trick.
Typical inductances of new electrolytics:
100uF/35-50V: .22-.31uH
100uF/450V: .27-.32uH
330uF/35-100V: .15-.3uH
1000uF/35-50V: .15-.3uH
3300uF/35-50V: .1-.27uH
In the latter case, that's enough for the resonant frequency (above
which the inductance predominates) to be as low as 5.3-8.6kHz, well
within the audio range.
|
Just look at the impedance curve of this LC series circuit, at 20kHz:
0.03Ohm, yes this impedance is inductive, yes at resonance frequency
the impedance is lower, and yes we are talking about frequencies in the
audio range.
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chel van Gennip
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:02 pm Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:28:46 +0100, Chel van Gennip wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:23:15 +0100, Paul Stamler wrote:
It has no virtually inductance and can never increase. Hmm. Neat trick.
Typical inductances of new electrolytics:
100uF/35-50V: .22-.31uH
100uF/450V: .27-.32uH
330uF/35-100V: .15-.3uH
1000uF/35-50V: .15-.3uH
3300uF/35-50V: .1-.27uH
In the latter case, that's enough for the resonant frequency (above
which the inductance predominates) to be as low as 5.3-8.6kHz, well
within the audio range.
Just look at the impedance curve of this LC series circuit, at 20kHz:
0.03Ohm, yes this impedance is inductive, yes at resonance frequency the
impedance is lower, and yes we are talking about frequencies in the
audio range.
|
Fore those not so used to calculus, the impedance of three mentioned
capacitors for different frequencies, the ESR set at 0.01 Ohm,
capaciter seen as RLC series circuit. Requency at factor 3.1623 steps.
100uf/.30uH 1000uF/.22uH 3300uF/.18uH
R 1.0e-02 1.0e-02 1.0e-02
L 3.0e-07 2.2e-07 1.8e-07
C 1.0e-04 1.0e-03 3.3e-03
Freq. Z Z Z
10 159.155 15.915 4.823
32 50.329 5.033 1.525
100 15.915 1.591 0.482
316 5.032 0.503 0.152
1000 1.590 0.158 0.048
3162 0.497 0.047 0.015
10000 0.141 0.010 0.012
31623 0.014 0.040 0.036
100000 0.173 0.137 0.113
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul Stamler
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
"Chel van Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote in message
news:30u0jrF33h2t4U1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:28:46 +0100, Chel van Gennip wrote:
Typical inductances of new electrolytics:
100uF/35-50V: .22-.31uH
100uF/450V: .27-.32uH
330uF/35-100V: .15-.3uH
1000uF/35-50V: .15-.3uH
3300uF/35-50V: .1-.27uH
In the latter case, that's enough for the resonant frequency (above
which the inductance predominates) to be as low as 5.3-8.6kHz, well
within the audio range.
Just look at the impedance curve of this LC series circuit, at 20kHz:
0.03Ohm, yes this impedance is inductive, yes at resonance frequency the
impedance is lower, and yes we are talking about frequencies in the
audio range.
Fore those not so used to calculus, the impedance of three mentioned
capacitors for different frequencies, the ESR set at 0.01 Ohm,
capaciter seen as RLC series circuit. Requency at factor 3.1623 steps.
100uf/.30uH 1000uF/.22uH 3300uF/.18uH
R 1.0e-02 1.0e-02 1.0e-02
L 3.0e-07 2.2e-07 1.8e-07
C 1.0e-04 1.0e-03 3.3e-03
Freq. Z Z Z
10 159.155 15.915 4.823
32 50.329 5.033 1.525
100 15.915 1.591 0.482
316 5.032 0.503 0.152
1000 1.590 0.158 0.048
3162 0.497 0.047 0.015
10000 0.141 0.010 0.012
31623 0.014 0.040 0.036
100000 0.173 0.137 0.113
|
The ESRs I measured were higher, though, on the order of .15-.45 ohms.
Caveat: the error factor in measuring the ESR in my setup is a good deal
higher than measuring resonant frequency, so take those numbers with a grain
of salt. But they accord at least fairly well with the manufacturer's
datasheets.
Peace,
Paul |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chel van Gennip
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:44:13 +0100, Paul Stamler wrote:
| Quote: | "Chel van Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote in message
news:30u0jrF33h2t4U1@uni-berlin.de...
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:28:46 +0100, Chel van Gennip wrote:
Typical inductances of new electrolytics:
100uF/35-50V: .22-.31uH
100uF/450V: .27-.32uH
330uF/35-100V: .15-.3uH
1000uF/35-50V: .15-.3uH
3300uF/35-50V: .1-.27uH
In the latter case, that's enough for the resonant frequency (above
which the inductance predominates) to be as low as 5.3-8.6kHz, well
within the audio range.
Just look at the impedance curve of this LC series circuit, at 20kHz:
0.03Ohm, yes this impedance is inductive, yes at resonance frequency
the impedance is lower, and yes we are talking about frequencies in
the audio range.
Fore those not so used to calculus, the impedance of three mentioned
capacitors for different frequencies, the ESR set at 0.01 Ohm,
capaciter seen as RLC series circuit. Requency at factor 3.1623 steps.
100uf/.30uH 1000uF/.22uH 3300uF/.18uH
R 1.0e-02 1.0e-02 1.0e-02
L 3.0e-07 2.2e-07 1.8e-07
C 1.0e-04 1.0e-03 3.3e-03
Freq. Z Z Z
10 159.155 15.915 4.823
32 50.329 5.033 1.525
100 15.915 1.591 0.482
316 5.032 0.503 0.152
1000 1.590 0.158 0.048
3162 0.497 0.047 0.015
10000 0.141 0.010 0.012
31623 0.014 0.040 0.036
100000 0.173 0.137 0.113
The ESRs I measured were higher, though, on the order of .15-.45 ohms.
Caveat: the error factor in measuring the ESR in my setup is a good deal
higher than measuring resonant frequency, so take those numbers with a
grain of salt. But they accord at least fairly well with the
manufacturer's datasheets.
|
A higher ESR means the resistive part of the impedance dominates in a
larger frequency range, with a inductance of .22uH and a ESR of .3Ohm, the
inductive part of the impedance predominates above about 300kHz. So it
can not be of any influence in the perceived sound of a V72.
I don't expect impedances in the order of 0.5 Ohm to have any affect in a
microphone preamp like the V72.
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil Allison
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:28 am Post subject:
Re: V72 electrolytics and brightness |
|
|
"Paul Stamler"
| Quote: |
The ESRs I measured were higher, though, on the order of .15-.45 ohms.
Caveat: the error factor in measuring the ESR in my setup is a good deal
higher than measuring resonant frequency, so take those numbers with a
grain
of salt.
|
** Your worthless numbers need a whole bucket of salt.
For Christs sake Paul - just measure the impedance at 100kHz - the
result will give you the effective ESR and prove the lack of inductive
effects at audio frequencies.
Then wake up to yourself and realise that even a 1 inch length of copper
wire has more inductive reactance than resistance above a few kHz.
.............. Phil |
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|
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