| Author |
Message |
Guest
|
 Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:25 am Post subject:
NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
Consumer Reports has some interesting Ratings for HDTVs. I notice
they rate HDTV input, DVD input, and Standard 480i inputs.
They rate the Sony HDTV sets (eg xxHS420 line), as having very good
performance with standard 480i signals (the famous half red circle).
Was wondering if owners of these sets would agree with that when
viewing 480i signals off the straight cable (no el cheapo tech
cableboxes involved).
4:3 or widescreen, don't matter to me; I'm considering both (well 34"
and 36 models).
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Larry Bud
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:05 pm Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
sammy@nospam.com wrote in message news:<7oegp09ip0ri546isskfv732gnfssjjutf@4ax.com>...
| Quote: | Consumer Reports has some interesting Ratings for HDTVs. I notice
they rate HDTV input, DVD input, and Standard 480i inputs.
They rate the Sony HDTV sets (eg xxHS420 line), as having very good
performance with standard 480i signals (the famous half red circle).
Was wondering if owners of these sets would agree with that when
viewing 480i signals off the straight cable (no el cheapo tech
cableboxes involved).
4:3 or widescreen, don't matter to me; I'm considering both (well 34"
and 36 models).
|
Completely depends on the quality of the signal. I'll get local ABC
news, for example, that looks fantastic as far as 480I goes, but then
watch some college football game which is completely unwatchable. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dennis Mayer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:36 pm Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
sammy@nospam.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Consumer Reports has some interesting Ratings for HDTVs. I notice
they rate HDTV input, DVD input, and Standard 480i inputs.
They rate the Sony HDTV sets (eg xxHS420 line), as having very good
performance with standard 480i signals (the famous half red circle).
Was wondering if owners of these sets would agree with that when
viewing 480i signals off the straight cable (no el cheapo tech
cableboxes involved).
4:3 or widescreen, don't matter to me; I'm considering both (well 34"
and 36 models).
|
I've seen the incomplete Consumer Reports HDTV listings....
What that report reinforces is that:
Sony CRT HDTVs have very good 'digital processing guts'
in their HD Tube TVs.... be it 30" wide or 32" 4:3...
IF the 480i Program source is good.. The picture is Good too!
IF the 480i Program source is rough... Sony picture is
better than what the competition usually can do... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:54 am Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:36:33 -0600, Dennis Mayer <Polaris1@execpc.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | ...
Sony CRT HDTVs have very good 'digital processing guts'
in their HD Tube TVs.... be it 30" wide or 32" 4:3...
IF the 480i Program source is good.. The picture is Good too!
IF the 480i Program source is rough... Sony picture is
better than what the competition usually can do...
|
Bottom line the TV does what it's supposed to do with a good signal.
That's half the battle. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dennis Mayer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:05 am Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
sammy@nospam.com wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:36:33 -0600, Dennis Mayer <Polaris1@execpc.com
wrote:
...
Sony CRT HDTVs have very good 'digital processing guts'
in their HD Tube TVs.... be it 30" wide or 32" 4:3...
IF the 480i Program source is good.. The picture is Good too!
IF the 480i Program source is rough... Sony picture is
better than what the competition usually can do...
Bottom line the TV does what it's supposed to do with a good signal.
That's half the battle.
|
What I, Den Mayer, meant to say about Sony's Guts:
Bottom line is the Sony Digital TV does 'Better' what it's supposed
to do with a good or average Analog signal... than it's
competition.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kent
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:32 am Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
What I found was that the SONY HD WEGA TV's do really well with
'dirty' analogue
480i cable broadcasts. When I switched to satellite I really missed
the
detail of the analogue 480i broadcasts with the WEGA. For example
even
though a compressed digital Satellite broadcast is 'clear' it lacks
the detail of analogue cable which I really missed.
HDTV on the WEGA from either cable or satellite is off the scale
stunning of course.
Dennis Mayer <Polaris1@execpc.com> wrote in message news:<419A7DA9.5D1D0FC1@execpc.com>...
| Quote: | sammy@nospam.com wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:36:33 -0600, Dennis Mayer <Polaris1@execpc.com
wrote:
...
Sony CRT HDTVs have very good 'digital processing guts'
in their HD Tube TVs.... be it 30" wide or 32" 4:3...
IF the 480i Program source is good.. The picture is Good too!
IF the 480i Program source is rough... Sony picture is
better than what the competition usually can do...
Bottom line the TV does what it's supposed to do with a good signal.
That's half the battle.
What I, Den Mayer, meant to say about Sony's Guts:
Bottom line is the Sony Digital TV does 'Better' what it's supposed
to do with a good or average Analog signal... than it's
competition.. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mack McKinnon
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:03 pm Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
I find a very wide range in picture quality for 480i on my Sony KDF-60XS955.
I do not find that a poor quality 480i signal is improved over what I think
it would look like an a standard analog TV set. Seems to me that my TV
emphasizes all the flaws of a poor 480i picture, making it worse. On the
other hand, some channels broadcast 480i pictures that look great.
Yesterday, I surfed through probably a hundred or more digital and analog
channels showing on my TV -- via Time-Warner Cable, a CableCard and the TV's
internal digital tuner. 480i picture quality was all over the place, from
horrible to excellent, as I surfed from channel to channel.
I would be very interested to know what it is, exactly, that makes for such
a wide range in picture quality among those different 480i signals.
In any case, I would not buy a Sony HDTV, or any other HDTV, for that
matter, because of anything good that it will necessarily do for 480i
broadcast pictures. A bad 480i picture -- whatever causes that -- is going
to look worse on your HDTV than it does on a plain old TV set.
mack
austin
"Kent" <johnston@nrcan.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:82ff7499.0411171333.99bc1fc@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | What I found was that the SONY HD WEGA TV's do really well with
'dirty' analogue
480i cable broadcasts. When I switched to satellite I really missed
the
detail of the analogue 480i broadcasts with the WEGA. For example
even
though a compressed digital Satellite broadcast is 'clear' it lacks
the detail of analogue cable which I really missed.
HDTV on the WEGA from either cable or satellite is off the scale
stunning of course.
Dennis Mayer <Polaris1@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:<419A7DA9.5D1D0FC1@execpc.com>...
sammy@nospam.com wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:36:33 -0600, Dennis Mayer <Polaris1@execpc.com
wrote:
...
Sony CRT HDTVs have very good 'digital processing guts'
in their HD Tube TVs.... be it 30" wide or 32" 4:3...
IF the 480i Program source is good.. The picture is Good too!
IF the 480i Program source is rough... Sony picture is
better than what the competition usually can do...
Bottom line the TV does what it's supposed to do with a good signal.
That's half the battle.
What I, Den Mayer, meant to say about Sony's Guts:
Bottom line is the Sony Digital TV does 'Better' what it's supposed
to do with a good or average Analog signal... than it's
competition.. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael Moore
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:02 am Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
I find that my KV-34XBR800 handles a poor quality 480i signal worsse
than a standard, cheap TV -- though the image can be improved somewhat
by turning off most (all?) of Sony's processing (DRC, etc.). It handles
a good 480i broadcast signal well -- mainly by line doubling and edge
enhancement. However, on a 480i signal from DVD, the 3-2 pulldown
appears virtually useless. The 3-2 pulldown in the DVD player (in
progessive mode -- also a Sony) works but has the Chroma bug. 480P and
1080i signals fed to the TV (via component) are displayed very well.
--
M2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leonard Caillouet
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
Mack, your experience duplicates that of many. Comments imbedded...
"Mack McKinnon" <MckinnonRemoveThis@tvadmanDeleteThisAsWell.com> wrote in
message news:lG2nd.3830$KQ2.2527@fe2.texas.rr.com...
| Quote: | I find a very wide range in picture quality for 480i on my Sony
KDF-60XS955. |
You will also find a wide range for HD and DVD content. The baseline is
higher, but the quality of content will vary on all levels.
| Quote: | I do not find that a poor quality 480i signal is improved over what I
think
it would look like an a standard analog TV set.
|
Garbage in, garbage out applies in most cases. You can't manufacture
relsolution that isn't in the original, and noise can at best be mitigated.
| Quote: | Seems to me that my TV
emphasizes all the flaws of a poor 480i picture, making it worse. On the
other hand, some channels broadcast 480i pictures that look great.
|
This is where the story gets a bit more complex than most people want to
deal with. Your set is able to resolve all of the problems in a lousy
signal. Lower resolution sets often "soften" the effects of noisy video.
Also, your set converts all signals to digital and doubles the scan rate of
480i and 480p signals. Some systems do a better job of handling the noise
in lower resolution signals than others. Ironically, systems that have
lower bandwidth in the analog stages before the D/A conversion may present a
digital result that is less offensive. The noise present in analog that
looks like grain ends up looking like a heavy patterned grain or a "mottled"
effect when digitized and upconverted. Sony has improved this in recent
models by apparently adding some analog filtering before the conversion. At
least that is what appears to be going on, and that is what they told me
they were planning a couple of years ago.
| Quote: | Yesterday, I surfed through probably a hundred or more digital and analog
channels showing on my TV -- via Time-Warner Cable, a CableCard and the
TV's
internal digital tuner. 480i picture quality was all over the place, from
horrible to excellent, as I surfed from channel to channel.
|
They range from horrible to excellent on both HD and SD sets. Poorer
quality sets show less of the problems, but also show less detail on the
good signals.
| Quote: | I would be very interested to know what it is, exactly, that makes for
such
a wide range in picture quality among those different 480i signals.
|
See above.
| Quote: | In any case, I would not buy a Sony HDTV, or any other HDTV, for that
matter, because of anything good that it will necessarily do for 480i
broadcast pictures. A bad 480i picture -- whatever causes that -- is
going
to look worse on your HDTV than it does on a plain old TV set.
|
You are right on, here. Don't expect improvements in lousy sources.
Remember the "digital" VCRs and TVs of the 1980s that attempted to reduce
noise in crap souces? They almost never looked better than the original
analog softened with an analog filter like a sharpness or detail control.
There may be reasonable compromises that are more appropriate for ones
taste. This is the very reason that people have chosen Panasonic CRT sets
over Sonys for many years. The Sony is more detailed but the Panasonic
looks "clearer" and the colors are "softer". Shop, look, and make
intelligent decisions based on personal preference and experience is the
best rule when choosing any product.
Leonard |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:52:01 GMT, "Mack McKinnon"
<MckinnonRemoveThis@tvadmanDeleteThisAsWell.com> wrote:
| Quote: | ...
In any case, I would not buy a Sony HDTV, or any other HDTV, for that
matter, because of anything good that it will necessarily do for 480i
broadcast pictures. A bad 480i picture -- whatever causes that -- is going
to look worse on your HDTV than it does on a plain old TV set.
mack
austin
|
How about EDTV ? Everyone keeps raving about the 37 and 42"
Panasonics.
Yeah, it's not HDTV, but I want to watch mostly DVD's, and PVR
recorded cable.
I've got a good CRT computer monitor and will probably be able to
watch HDTV on my computer soon for the gotta see gee wiz stuff. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeff Rigby
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
<voter> wrote in message news:lvrrp0t0dsmen47dpvokqi6fb69d77c5u6@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:52:01 GMT, "Mack McKinnon"
MckinnonRemoveThis@tvadmanDeleteThisAsWell.com> wrote:
...
In any case, I would not buy a Sony HDTV, or any other HDTV, for that
matter, because of anything good that it will necessarily do for 480i
broadcast pictures. A bad 480i picture -- whatever causes that -- is
going
to look worse on your HDTV than it does on a plain old TV set.
mack
austin
How about EDTV ? Everyone keeps raving about the 37 and 42"
Panasonics.
Yeah, it's not HDTV, but I want to watch mostly DVD's, and PVR
recorded cable.
I've got a good CRT computer monitor and will probably be able to
watch HDTV on my computer soon for the gotta see gee wiz stuff.
There are frame buffers that convert NTSC for a HD TV that corrects the SOFT |
picture you normally get with cheaper HD TV's. MGA has had one on their
higher end sets and Samsung has them on some of their lower end sets ie:
Akai pt5598hd a 55 inch HD TV with HD tuner. The picture quality when
displaying NTSC 480i is better than a standard NTSC projection tv. In fact,
it does a better job than some of the TV stations ( HD signal from NTSC
source). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leonard Caillouet
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
"Jeff Rigby" <jeffg212@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4_2dnZe9JI_YaADcRVn-jw@comcast.com...
| Quote: | There are frame buffers that convert NTSC for a HD TV that corrects the
SOFT
picture you normally get with cheaper HD TV's.
|
What does a frame buffer do for a soft pix, specifically? It may be part of
a system but the processing applied is what is important. Do you have some
details that migh tbe interesting?
| Quote: | MGA has had one on their
|
MGA has not existed for a long time, in the USA, anyway. Where are you. If
you mean Mitsubishi, they use some enhancement schemes, the most effective
on 480i is to actually filter it carefully in analog before digitizing it.
Who knows the details of the algorithms they apply in the digital domain.
You can't get that info in any detail, if at all.
| Quote: | higher end sets and Samsung has them on some of their lower end sets ie:
Akai pt5598hd a 55 inch HD TV with HD tuner. The picture quality when
displaying NTSC 480i is better than a standard NTSC projection tv. In
fact,
it does a better job than some of the TV stations ( HD signal from NTSC
source).
|
Bullshit. I sell and work on the Mitsubishis every day. I can't think of a
single set that looks better on NTSC than the best of the analog sets, now
all gone. The best look very good, and are very acceptable, IMO, but not
better than they would if never processed digitally. The artifacts of
digitizing analog are clearly there. Which you prefer, analog grain that is
more random or digital grain that is more patterned is a matter of
preference. There is no going to be more detail in a digital image than in
the original analog source. Unfortunately, you don't have much choice
unless you buy a cheap analog only set. Virtually all consumer sets except
the very least expensive do some digital conversion nowdays.
Sets like the Samsung, which do not have the optical nor electronic ability
to resolve the detail that better sets have, may actually be more forgiving
of analog grain and digital grunge. This is nothing new. Better resolution
of lousy sources has been a decision point for large and higher resolution
televisions since the first Videobeam came out thirty years ago.
Leonard |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mack McKinnon
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
<voter> wrote
| Quote: | How about EDTV ? Everyone keeps raving about the 37 and 42"
Panasonics.
Yeah, it's not HDTV, but I want to watch mostly DVD's, and PVR
recorded cable.
|
Personally, I would not consider buying an EDTV (480p) over an HDTV (480p,
720p,1080i) just to save a few hundred dollars. Yes, I suppose that would
be be good enough if all you were doing was watch SD television shows and
DVD's but, once you see real HDTV, I can't imagine that you are not going to
want HD as often as you can get it. Once you see a football game (or
basketball, or hockey) in HDTV, for example, you will never be satisfied
with anything less again -- the difference is that dramatic. Spring for the
extra bucks and go HDTV.
mack
austin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dennis Mayer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:05 am Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
voter wrote:
| Quote: |
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:52:01 GMT, "Mack McKinnon"
MckinnonRemoveThis@tvadmanDeleteThisAsWell.com> wrote:
...
In any case, I would not buy a Sony HDTV, or any other HDTV, for that
matter, because of anything good that it will necessarily do for 480i
broadcast pictures. A bad 480i picture -- whatever causes that -- is going
to look worse on your HDTV than it does on a plain old TV set.
mack
austin
How about EDTV ? Everyone keeps raving about the 37 and 42"
Panasonics.
|
I believe EDTV is defined as 480p wide......
A consistent, fairly good example of a 480p wide Live TV programing
to date has been the Sat/Sunday NASCAR auto races offered
by both the TNT or NBC Networks... One more race to Go....
And yes there was the Richmond NBC-HD short track event too...
| Quote: |
Yeah, it's not HDTV, but I want to watch mostly DVD's, and PVR
recorded cable.
I've got a good CRT computer monitor and will probably be able to
watch HDTV on my computer soon for the gotta see gee wiz stuff. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:03 am Post subject:
Re: NTSC on Sony HDTVs |
|
|
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:46:49 GMT, "Mack McKinnon"
<MckinnonRemoveThis@tvadmanDeleteThisAsWell.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
voter> wrote
How about EDTV ? Everyone keeps raving about the 37 and 42"
Panasonics.
Yeah, it's not HDTV, but I want to watch mostly DVD's, and PVR
recorded cable.
Personally, I would not consider buying an EDTV (480p) over an HDTV (480p,
720p,1080i) just to save a few hundred dollars. Yes, I suppose that would
be be good enough if all you were doing was watch SD television shows and
DVD's but, once you see real HDTV, I can't imagine that you are not going to
want HD as often as you can get it. Once you see a football game (or
basketball, or hockey) in HDTV, for example, you will never be satisfied
with anything less again -- the difference is that dramatic. Spring for the
extra bucks and go HDTV.
mack
austin
|
I'd buy a HDTV in a second, but all I'm hearing from every forum I've
researched is that they will give you a worse picture than an analog
set with standard cable etc. Sure, it's somebody's else's fault, but
it's the reality of cable TV.
The only network/broadcast show I've watched this year is Enterprise.
My local "build a new stadium or we'll move" teams have been at the
bottom of their divisions for years, and frankly I feel pro sports are
about as honest as wrestling ;) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in