| Author |
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MZ
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:18 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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| Quote: | Soundstream made a few Class A amps. The most powerful of those was the
Reference Class A 10.0 with a whopping 25 watts per channel into 4 ohms.
Class A amps tend not too be as powerful and use much more current because
unlike class AB amps that use a switching power supply (the amp employs
one
stage to "push" the speaker and another stage to "pull" the speaker) where
one half is " switched" off when the other half is "switched" on, Class A
amps are ALWAYS on in both halves. Audiophiles claim that in Class AB
amps,
when each half switches on and off, distortion is created, they claim this
is not present in a Class A amp where the power is always on in both
stages.
(forgive me if I am not using exactly the right terminology as I am no EE)
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That's a pretty accurate description. The short standard version is class
A - always conducting, class B half conducting, class AB biased just enough
to account for the diode drop (some folks say it behaves like class A at low
levels and class B at high levels, but I don't really like that
description).
The distortion that you're referring to is called crossover distortion, and
there have been a lot of papers about it. The general conclusion, and I do
mean general, is that crossover distortion below about 1% is not detectable
by the ear. There are actually two studies that come to mind, but the more
straightforward of the two based simply on introducing crossover distortion
into various types of music - not sine waves - came up with the 1% number.
And today's class AB amplifiers tend to exhibit far less than 1%. So, I'd
say to the audiophiles that it's a moot point.
| Quote: | Mr. Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor III
(I hate using my full name)
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And nowadays there ain't even any oxide! :)
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MOSFET
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:28 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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The general conclusion, and I do
| Quote: | mean general, is that crossover distortion below about 1% is not
detectable
by the ear. There are actually two studies that come to mind, but the
more
straightforward of the two based simply on introducing crossover
distortion
into various types of music - not sine waves - came up with the 1% number.
And today's class AB amplifiers tend to exhibit far less than 1%. So, I'd
say to the audiophiles that it's a moot point.
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Well yes, and what's interesting (to go off on another tangent) is the fact
that very expensive tube amplifiers (single ended triode, whatever the hell
that means) usually have much higher distortion percentages than your
typical solid state Class AB amplifier. Yet audiophiles claim that these
amps sound better than solid state.
Of course, I understand that tube distortion is different from solid state
distortion. I know this from first-hand experience: in high school I was
in a band and owned an Ampeg Bass Guitar Amp (two part affair with tube amp
on top and two 15"s on the bottom). When not being used by the band I had
it attached to my stereo a la subwoofer style. I LOVED bass even back then
(especially back then) and I would crank Kraftwerk's "The Robots" as it had
some wicked bass. Years later I would listen to "The Robots" and think that
the bass sounded different (not as good) and it dawned on me one day that I
was hearing tons of distortion when I cranked that tube amp and it was this
distortion that I missed. The distortion sounded good! That's tubes for
you.
MOSFET |
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MZ
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:28 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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| Quote: | Well yes, and what's interesting (to go off on another tangent) is the
fact
that very expensive tube amplifiers (single ended triode, whatever the
hell
that means) usually have much higher distortion percentages than your
typical solid state Class AB amplifier. Yet audiophiles claim that these
amps sound better than solid state.
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Exactly. Tube amps have traditionally been high in second order harmonic
distortion, which can give them their "warm" sound. Today they're being
built "cleaner", and there are hybrids out there that write "tube amp" all
over the box, when in fact just the preamp section uses tubes.
Personally, I'd take the solid state amp any day, and leave the little
artifacts to the signal processing stage if I want them. The real question,
though, comes when discussing which one clips more "gracefully".
| Quote: |
Of course, I understand that tube distortion is different from solid state
distortion. I know this from first-hand experience: in high school I was
in a band and owned an Ampeg Bass Guitar Amp (two part affair with tube
amp
on top and two 15"s on the bottom). When not being used by the band I had
it attached to my stereo a la subwoofer style. I LOVED bass even back
then
(especially back then) and I would crank Kraftwerk's "The Robots" as it
had
some wicked bass. Years later I would listen to "The Robots" and think
that
the bass sounded different (not as good) and it dawned on me one day that
I
was hearing tons of distortion when I cranked that tube amp and it was
this
distortion that I missed. The distortion sounded good! That's tubes for
you.
|
Ah, apples and oranges! Guitar/bass amplifiers exhibit a ton of distortion,
whereas audio amplifiers are supposed to introduce none (and they do a
pretty good job of it, too!). I've owned several guitar amps, and my
favorite was probably the one that distorted the easiest (also an Ampeg).
It was hard to find a distortion pedal that sounded good through it, but
man, I didn't need one. On the flipside, I owned a vintage Hiwatt head and
matching 4x12 cab that was probably the cleanest tube amp I've ever used.
It was pretty good in some ways, and it was incredibly loud, but no match
for my Ampeg (which, if I remember correctly, in the manual quoted its power
rating at 40% THD)... |
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Brandonb
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:14 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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Tony, I know what you're talking about. I myself have a PG ZX450 laying
around. That's the older white 4x75 one for anyone not too familiar.
Actually, I may consider selling it if you want to offer :)
Brandonb
Tony F wrote:
| Quote: | The first amp I ever owned that made me jump up and say "Holy crap that
sounds SWEET!!!" was a Soundstream MC245x (I think that was the model name).
I remember in particular listening to some vocal music and it was so
smoooth. Anyway, with all this talk about amps sounding alike it makes me
wonder what it was that I heard - or thought I heard. Did amps in the old
days really differ in SQ?
I can tell you this. Unless another company comes out with something that
grabs my eyes and ears more than Phoenix Gold ZX and/or Titanium series
amplifiers, I'll be using those until I can't hear any more. I'll buy 'em
used off of eBay or any other place I can get them. So in 20 years from now
I'll be this middle-aged man touting my PG amps and people will be like,
"What the hell is this guy talking about?" But there will always be a few
that will remember and think, "Damn...I haven't thought about those old PG
amps in a long time!"
Tony
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Tony F
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:22 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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"Tony, I know what you're talking about. I myself have a PG ZX450 laying
around. That's the older white 4x75 one for anyone not too familiar.
Actually, I may consider selling it if you want to offer :)"
If you would have said something a few weeks ago, I might have taken you up
on it. I actually just purchased a Ti500.4. Almost identical to the ZX450,
but the newer Titanium version. It'll be going in my S10 when I get off my
lazy butt.
Tony
--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Eclipse CD8454 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and ZX500 Amplifiers,
Phoenix Gold EQ-232 30-Band EQ, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and
Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, 2 Soundstream EXACT10s In Aperiodic Enclosure
2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP (Just gettin' started) |
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wideglide340
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:46 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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i think that the one of the biggest differences between amps of toda
and those made 10 to 15 years ago was that there wasn't a fine lin
between the quality. by this i mean you had good brands and you had th
bad brands. it was not hard to tell the difference between them.
myself remember competing in the eighties in the car audio national
and there was basically 4 or five brands in every winning car. alpine
ads, rockford, nakamichi. for the rich folk and some sony source units
even into the mid nineties there was the good stuff like ppi
phoenix,jl was by far the only sub winning anything, soundstream
orion, to only name a few ,and then you had a few mid level amp an
speaker companys and then you had all the rest of the junk. i d
think however that the industry was geared in that era towards soun
quality. the person coming to me in the early and mid nineties that wa
spending the big bucks wanted powerful but simple sq systems where th
installation more often than not cost more than the equiptment. i ca
remember actually auditioning rca cables for people. and believe m
there is a difference between average cables and really really goo
cables. the emphasis has been taken off the sq. and now it's all abou
the most dramatic bass for the buck. not that there is anything wron
with that. and yes there are good amps out there now but i think th
demand for sq is down so the price of those amps will continue to ris
or the quality will have to suffer. the people who have never heard
pioneer m88 cd player running an ads ph15 amp with 320i components an
jl subs i think would be really shocked. oh well as long as we are al
happy with our own systems that's what it's all about anyway. oh b
the way i run all diamond and eclipse in my car but am planning to swa
to some ppi art series amps or phoenix gold ms series that i hav
laying around. have fun building
--
wideglide34
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Ian
Guest
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Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:19 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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I'm surprised to see no mention of any Zed audio stuff.
"MOSFET" <ntanner@whidbey.com> wrote in message
news:na6dnawCk4_S4YzfRVn-1w@whidbeytel.com...
<snip snip>
| Quote: | Anyway, does anybody agree with me? Disagree?
MOSFET
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Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:26 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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ephedralover@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Manufacturers are finding cheaper ways to build amps also. Back in
the
day, 50 watt amp weighed say 10 pounds, now with the plastic world we
live in, same amp weighs 4 pounds.
Whats ruined car audio are the walmarts and best buys. You get all
these Pacos buying Sony Xplod crap. Other companies look at them and
see there selling a ton of shit components so they follow suit. I bet
Sony sells 1000X more crapo Xplod amps than any company that makes
quality components. Its all about money, not what sounds good.
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I don't think Walmark or Best buy ruin the car audio. They just
sell cheap stuff as it's worth as it cost. who wants to spend over
$1,000
amp? You get what you buy. Want best car audio spend as much as
possible? Go spend as much as possible. I don't have to spend over
$300 over system because I don't need it. My system is around $100.
It is not shit system you think. I don't need a $300 subwoofer for
my music or get into sound competition in street. Since I don't listen
Hip-Hop I don't have to carry this mega ton of subwoofer... |
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Tony F
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? OFF TOPIC |
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I apologize for the irrelavance, but I have a question for you wideglide. I
see that you're a member of caraudioforum. I've been wanting to join this
site for quite some time but when I try to sign up I get a message saying
they'll be sending me an email with a link to follow so I can finish
registration and start posting. Anyway, I never got the link and they've
completely ignored a dozen or so of my emails to their support dept asking
about the problem. Is there any way you could email the administrator and
ask them to at least acknowledge me by sending me an email. I REALLY want
to join the site. Email me at tbone407@charter.net if you can help.
Thanks,
Tony
--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Eclipse CD8454 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and ZX500 Amplifiers,
Phoenix Gold EQ-232 30-Band EQ, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and
Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, 2 Soundstream EXACT10s In Aperiodic Enclosure
2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP (Just gettin' started) |
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Jim
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:21 pm Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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I agree. New technology has made amplifiers cheaper to produce, with
a higher profit margin. I like the old school amps better. I have 2
a/d/s/ PQ20's in my system, one of them I bought new, and the second
one I bought used, about 10 years ago. Both amps have worked
absolutely flawlessly every single time I have used them without so
much as a single problem in the past 10 or 15 years.
Lots of people hear my system and can't believe how loud I can play it
without the slightest hint of distortion. Sounds as good as the day I
bought the amps.
I wish I could say that for any of the speakers I have owned.
Also have a friend that has 4 Rockford Fosgate Punch 150 amps running
his system. Great stuff too, he worked for RF and bought them back in
1985, and they are still working today. He also has a couple Power
650's that he bought back in 1986, never even been powered on since
they came off the assembly line. |
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MOSFET
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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He also has a couple Power
| Quote: | 650's that he bought back in 1986, never even been powered on since
they came off the assembly line.
Wow! Now that was a GREAT amp! I would Kill (starting with |
mmdir2002@yahoo.co.uk) to get my hands on that amp!
MOSFET |
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MZ
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:54 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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| Quote: | and believe me
there is a difference between average cables and really really good
cables.
snip |
No thanks. |
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MZ
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:56 am Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? OFF TOPIC |
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Tony, there are much better forums out there than CAF. If you want car
audio, you could check out the carsound site (don't tell Eddie Runner I said
that). For audio in general, the best on the net by far is rec.audio.tech,
which is a much busier group than this one.
"Tony F" <tbone407*nospam*@charter.net> wrote in message
news:FR2Rd.502$sZ1.273@fe03.lga...
| Quote: | I apologize for the irrelavance, but I have a question for you wideglide.
I
see that you're a member of caraudioforum. I've been wanting to join this
site for quite some time but when I try to sign up I get a message saying
they'll be sending me an email with a link to follow so I can finish
registration and start posting. Anyway, I never got the link and they've
completely ignored a dozen or so of my emails to their support dept asking
about the problem. Is there any way you could email the administrator and
ask them to at least acknowledge me by sending me an email. I REALLY want
to join the site. Email me at tbone407@charter.net if you can help.
Thanks,
Tony
--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Eclipse CD8454 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and ZX500
Amplifiers,
Phoenix Gold EQ-232 30-Band EQ, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and
Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, 2 Soundstream EXACT10s In Aperiodic Enclosure
2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP (Just gettin' started)
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Charley
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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"MZ" <zarellam@removetwcny.rr.comspam> wrote in message
news:WtednSAtgIbHJI_fRVn-gA@giganews.com...
| Quote: | The PPI-2300 wasn't a class A amp - it was class AB just like the rest
of their models. There WERE class A amps available for the car, but
they were nowhere NEAR 600 Watts. The PPIs were nice amps, though.
Now that you've told him it's not class A, it won't sound as good...
Not true at all. |
There simple IS no amp built for the car that sounds a clean as my PPI's.
Besides...they are what I have. I like them, I know how they will respond
to given loads and signal inputs. I guess the short version is, that I like
the way they sound better than any amp currently on the market (Yes, I've
listened to LOTS of them), and I know how to get the most out of them.
As far as their being a class A or AB amp, well I'm not an electrical
engineer. I'm an audiophile. When I bought my first 2300, I was led to
believe it was a pure class A amp. Whether it is or not, I still think they
sound better than anythign I could replace them with.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Scott Gardner
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:53 pm Post subject:
Re: DISCUSSION TOPIC: Do You Like/Use Old Amps? |
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:14:35 GMT, "Charley" <photos@agileemmy.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"MZ" <zarellam@removetwcny.rr.comspam> wrote in message
news:WtednSAtgIbHJI_fRVn-gA@giganews.com...
The PPI-2300 wasn't a class A amp - it was class AB just like the rest
of their models. There WERE class A amps available for the car, but
they were nowhere NEAR 600 Watts. The PPIs were nice amps, though.
Now that you've told him it's not class A, it won't sound as good...
Not true at all.
There simple IS no amp built for the car that sounds a clean as my PPI's.
Besides...they are what I have. I like them, I know how they will respond
to given loads and signal inputs. I guess the short version is, that I like
the way they sound better than any amp currently on the market (Yes, I've
listened to LOTS of them), and I know how to get the most out of them.
As far as their being a class A or AB amp, well I'm not an electrical
engineer. I'm an audiophile. When I bought my first 2300, I was led to
believe it was a pure class A amp. Whether it is or not, I still think they
sound better than anythign I could replace them with.
|
Well, if you really believe that's true, Richard Clark has a $10,000
check with your name on it. Let us know what you buy with it.
Seriously, I like PPI too, for reasons I've already mentioned. That's
why I have four of them right now.
Scott Gardner |
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