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Martin Hart
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:22 am Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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In article <1oflu0hrlu7nm5do6lel4ij2hvtdbshbcj@4ax.com>, cne@efn.org
says...
| Quote: |
Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
2.55:1 Todd-AO version. Additionally, so far, the only 2.55:1 DVD
Rogers & Hammerstein musicals are Carousel and The King and I.
Charles
nzvideos.org
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From a composition standpoint, both the CinemaScope and the Todd-AO
laser disc versions are quite acceptable, with the CinemaScope being
approximately 2.55:1 and the Todd-AO being 2.2:1.
Todd-AO is a 65mm format with a screen ratio of 2.2:1, and was used in
the roadshow version of "Oklahoma!". The general release version of the
film was made in CinemaScope, a 35mm anamorphic system. Both "Carousel"
and "The King and I" were filmed in CinemaScope 55, which used a
negative width of 55.625mm. CinemaScope 55, like the original magnetic
sound version of 35mm CinemaScope, had a screen ratio of 2.55:1.
Information on CinemaScope may be found at:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingcs1.htm
Information on Todd-AO may be found at:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingto1.htm
Actual film frames from both the CinemaScope and Todd-AO versions are
shown on the web site.
You can see surviving frames of specially rectified Todd-AO prints made
for deeply curved screens with a high projector angle at:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingto5.htm
A frame from a CinemaScope 55 test film can be seen at:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/special/cs55.htm
A standard 65mm frame Todd-AO frame from "Oklahoma!" and a beautiful
Technicolor four-track magnetic CinemaScope frame can be see at:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingto6.htm
A comparison chart of all the major wide screen systems can be seen at:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/aspectratio.htm
In my opinion, the two different versions of "Oklahoma!" are much more
alike than some people seem feel. There are points in the film, such as
the main title, where the two films are dramatically different, but the
two versions were shot with lenses that had approximately the same
horizontal angular coverage, with the Todd-AO taking in a bit more in
the vertical dimension. The video transfer of the CinemaScope version
isn't as brilliant as the Todd-AO version but it's up to the standards
that were common at the time it was made. A new transfer, using today's
best systems, should be made. Todd-AO looks a whole lot better than the
current DVD would lead you to believe. An example of how good it could
look can be seen in Warner Home Video's DVD of "Around The World In 80
Days." "Oklahoma!" deserves better treatment.
Marty
--
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum
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Martin Hart
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:22 am Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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In article <350298F4dneugU1@individual.net>,
paulatspambegone.pron@tiscali.co.uk says...
<SNIP>
| Quote: | Yes - the original laserdisc issue was produced from the CinemaScope master.
The final issue was produced from the restored Todd AO version, and was an
enormous step-up from the previous issue. I've seen a lengthy article
describing the differences between the two versions, but can't now find a
link to it.....
|
The Todd-AO version has not been "restored". The negative was sent
through the film scanner and whatever color correction that was required
to fix the faded negative was done in NTSC video. A real restoration
would result in the production of a state of the art duplicate negative
from which intermediate materials may be struck for future demands.
Scanning a film into low rez video should never be confused with
restoration.
| Quote: | AFAIR, the surviving 'scope elements are too far gone to restore to a decent
standard.
|
The CinemaScope negative should be in far better condition than the
Todd-AO negative. This is because the CinemaScope prints were made in
dye transfer Technicolor, a process that requires handling of the
negative a minimal number of times and all prints are struck from three
matrix films created from the negative.
The Todd-AO negative, on the other hand, had to be run through the
optical or contact printer, depending on whether or not rectification
was required, for each and every print shipped to a theatre.
If 200 Technicolor prints were required then the negative went through
Technicolor's optical printer THREE times, to capture the red, green,
and blue elements in the image. If 200 Todd-AO prints were required then
the negative ran through the printer TWO HUNDRED times. Technicolor
could produce tens of thousands of the CinemaScope prints with less wear
and tear on the negative than a few hundred Todd-AO prints.
Marty
--
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum |
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Martin Hart
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:22 am Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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In article <1TCGd.53626$Ew6.277@twister.socal.rr.com>,
plinfesty@bak.rr.com says...
| Quote: |
Of course I could be wrong, but I believe both the Laserdisc and the
DVD is the 2.20:1 35mm cinemascope version. To the best of my
knowledge, there has never been a laserdisc or dvd that contained the
2.55:1 Todd-AO version. Additionally, so far, the only 2.55:1 DVD
Rogers & Hammerstein musicals are Carousel and The King and I.
Yes, you're wrong. The last LD and only DVD is the 2.2:1 70mm Todd-AO
version. The first (or second to last) LD was from the 35mm Cinemascope
2.55 version (or was it a mag-optic 2.35 release?) Anyway, Todd-AO was
never 2.55.
|
You are correct, Paul. The CinemaScope transfer uses the full 2.55:1
frame.
Marty
--
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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ZEKE, the NERDS wrote:
| Quote: | TODD AO was shot at 30 FPS, which results in a significant
improvement in
flicker and strobing due to the 25%
increase in temporal resolution. This is why I shoot my own movies at
30p
instead of 24p because they WANT to
get that "film look." 30 frames per second retains the "dreamy"
quality of
film
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Isn't this an argument for shooting filmed TV shows at 30 fps instead
of 24? (I can picture producers saying, "Oh, of COURSE we want to spend
25% more on film stock ...")
I wouldn't propose this for theatrical features - I'm thinking it's too
much of a 24 fps world out there. But for films made strictly for TV,
it could be especially welcome with the advent of HDTV. And wouldn't it
be easier to convert 30 fps films to 25 fps PAL? |
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jayembee
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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Martin Hart <see-address@website.listed.below.org> wrote:
| Quote: | The CinemaScope negative should be in far better condition than the
Todd-AO negative. This is because the CinemaScope prints were made in
dye transfer Technicolor, a process that requires handling of the
negative a minimal number of times and all prints are struck from three
matrix films created from the negative.
The Todd-AO negative, on the other hand, had to be run through the
optical or contact printer, depending on whether or not rectification
was required, for each and every print shipped to a theatre.
|
Prints are rarely made from the original negative. They are generally
made from an internegative, precisely so that the original negative
needs only be handled once.
-- jayembee |
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ZEKE, the NERDS
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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<MrBuddwing@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1105951637.865926.206640@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | ZEKE, the NERDS wrote:
TODD AO was shot at 30 FPS, which results in a significant
improvement in
flicker and strobing due to the 25%
increase in temporal resolution. This is why I shoot my own movies at
30p
instead of 24p [most HD shooters use 24p] because they WANT to
get that "film look." 30 frames per second [still] retains the "dreamy"
quality of
film
Isn't this an argument for shooting filmed TV shows at 30 fps instead
of 24? (I can picture producers saying, "Oh, of COURSE we want to spend
25% more on film stock ...")
I wouldn't propose this for theatrical features - I'm thinking it's too
much of a 24 fps world out there. But for films made strictly for TV,
it could be especially welcome with the advent of HDTV. And wouldn't it
be easier to convert 30 fps films to 25 fps PAL?
well the ultimate film format is 59.95 (TRUMBALLVISION) |
i saw it once when they had the TV show in the LUXOR i actually
was fooled by it for a few minutes, it was set up to look like a live
TV show being filmed. i think they had a similar show at a pizza chain
you really thought it was live cause you had that nice film resolution and
depth
together with the "liveness" of 60 FPS temporal resolution. i imagine a lot
of
customers never knew it was film!
for a short time, a few commercials were being shot at 60 FPS, and some
exteriors
for soaps, possibly.
can you imagine 60 FPS IMAX! ok, then add motion simulation!
for shooting anything but fast action, these days 5 or 10 frames per second
is enough because
you can use computers to render the "in between" frames. I am rather looking
for a way to take
the 10 FPS feed from my SONY 828 (at 3200 x 2800 more or less) to an
external hard drive.
for now i content myself with the sony HDV camera 1440 X 1080 progressive
scanned. the pixels
are rectangular 1.3333:1 ratio, giving 1920 x 1080i after post.
zeke |
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Morgan Montague
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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G
"jayembee" <jayembeenospam@snurcher.com> wrote in message
news:sdvmu0dlgf3hvumm93rg5c7lnm16meao2m@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Martin Hart <see-address@website.listed.below.org> wrote:
The CinemaScope negative should be in far better condition than the
Todd-AO negative. This is because the CinemaScope prints were made in
dye transfer Technicolor, a process that requires handling of the
negative a minimal number of times and all prints are struck from three
matrix films created from the negative.
The Todd-AO negative, on the other hand, had to be run through the
optical or contact printer, depending on whether or not rectification
was required, for each and every print shipped to a theatre.
Prints are rarely made from the original negative. They are generally
made from an internegative, precisely so that the original negative
needs only be handled once.
-- jayembee
|
Generally, this is true. However, at the time OKLAHOMA! was produced the
intermediate materials were not available. All the opticals, like the
initial fade in to the corn field at the beginning of the picture show, show
an incredible amount of grain, in what is an essentially grainless process.
It took quite a long time for 35mm films (let alone 65/70mm) productions to
get good intermediate materials which is one reason why Color By Deluxe
titles on video today have these horrible contrast/grain bumps during
opticals.
I'd be curious to know what 70mm release from a 65mm original negative was
first to have had the bulk of its release prints produced from a IN. I
suspect that title was an IMAX feature. Perhaps it was the de-anamorphize
BEN HUR rerelease circa 1972.
Morgan |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:27 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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It was interesting to watch _Fantasia 2000_ on Imax, where they reprise "The
Sorcerer's Apprentice". Very, very different resolution. But on DvD, the
difference was negligible. |
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Steve Kraus
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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jayembee wrote:
| Quote: | Prints are rarely made from the original negative.
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Hahahaha. Better tell that to (restoration supervisor) Bob Harris. |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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70mm prints of "Baraka" are made from the original 65mm negative.
Technicolor, London manufactured 31 x 4-hour 70mm prints of "Hamlet". 5
of which were made from the original 65mm camera negative. "Far and
Away" came from a 65mm internegative.
Cheers Thomas |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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70mm prints of "Baraka" are made from the original 65mm negative.
Technicolor, London manufactured 31 x 4-hour 70mm prints of "Hamlet". 5
of which were made from the original 65mm camera negative. "Far and
Away" 70mm prints came from a 65mm internegative.
Cheers Thomas
www.in70mm.com |
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Martin Hart
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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In article <sdvmu0dlgf3hvumm93rg5c7lnm16meao2m@4ax.com>,
jayembeenospam@snurcher.com says...
| Quote: | Martin Hart <see-address@website.listed.below.org> wrote:
The CinemaScope negative should be in far better condition than the
Todd-AO negative. This is because the CinemaScope prints were made in
dye transfer Technicolor, a process that requires handling of the
negative a minimal number of times and all prints are struck from three
matrix films created from the negative.
The Todd-AO negative, on the other hand, had to be run through the
optical or contact printer, depending on whether or not rectification
was required, for each and every print shipped to a theatre.
Prints are rarely made from the original negative. They are generally
made from an internegative, precisely so that the original negative
needs only be handled once.
-- jayembee
|
This is true only of contemporary films. The use of good quality
intermediate color stock is relatively recent. Throughout the fifties
through the seventies most films were printed directly off the cut
camera negative. This is why restorations are required for such films as
"Lawrence of Arabia" and "My Fair Lady", both of which went through the
printer over 200 times. Technicolor dye transfer printing, which was
only used for 35mm prints, required a minimum of three passes for every
300 or so prints.
Marty
--
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum |
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Patrick McCart
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:11 am Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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20th Century Fox will be releasing a special "50th Anniversary" edition
of Oklahoma! this year, on DVD. (Also part of the wave is the '45
version of State Fair and a remastered 40th Anniversary edition of The
Sound of Music).
Let's hope they make it a two-disc edition with both CinemaScope and
Todd-AO versions. They ought to take after Warner's 2-disc sets for
Strangers on a Train and Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.
Even with its shortcomings, the Todd-AO video master for Oklahoma!
looks wonderful. I'd love to see what Fox can come up with using
today's mastering technology.
MrBuddwing@aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but is there an
easy
way of getting both the Todd-AO and CinemaScope versions of OKLAHOMA!
on home video? Years ago, I passed up a chance to buy a laserdisc of
the Todd-AO version and I've been quietly kicking myself ever since.
(Which version is the latest DVD release?) |
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One-Shot Scot
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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"ahollis577" <ahollis577@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XISdnUxvV9AUIXfcRVn-1Q@comcast.com...
<<And there certainly is a difference between the two versions. All you
have to do is compare the Kansas City number and see that the staging
was different for each version.>>
There are two key scenes in the Kansas City number which indicate the
spontaneity of the first-filmed Todd-AO version:
In the Todd-AO version, Will Parker jumps onto the wooden box and when
it collapses, he nearly falls over. The girl standing next to him
reaches out to catch him. In the CinemaScope version, Will Parker does
not lose his balance.
In the Todd-AO version, as Will Parker is dancing on the top of the
train, he calls for his horse who is being held by a man in the
background. Apparently, the horse jumped his queue and as he gallops off
toward the train, the man holding him is spun around and falls to the
ground. In the CinemaScope version, this does not happen.
The Todd-AO version is by far superior to the CinemaScope version.
However, Fox decided to release it non-anamorphic, which was the Fox
tradition during its infatuation with Circuit City's proprietary, DIVX
perpetual-rental, digital-disk format. |
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One-Shot Scot
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject:
Re: Oklahoma! in Todd-AO? |
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"Patrick McCart" <pmccart@tds.net> wrote in message
news:1106017912.238392.198440@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
<<20th Century Fox will be releasing a special "50th Anniversary"
edition of Oklahoma! this year, on DVD. (Also part of the wave is the
'45 version of State Fair and a remastered 40th Anniversary edition of
The Sound of Music).>>
<<Let's hope they make it a two-disc edition with both CinemaScope and
Todd-AO versions. They ought to take after Warner's 2-disc sets for
Strangers on a Train and Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.>>
<<Even with its shortcomings, the Todd-AO video master for Oklahoma!
looks wonderful. I'd love to see what Fox can come up with using today's
mastering technology.>>
This is great news!
The ideal situation would be to put the CinemaScope disc in one player
and Todd-AO disc in another player and then switch between them.
I did this with the CinemaScope LaserDisc version and the Todd-AO DVD
version.
I agree. The Todd-AO version is by far the better of the two. |
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