| Author |
Message |
Andy Fraser
Guest
|
 Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:17 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In alt.comp.linux, SjT uttered the immortal words:
| Quote: | If you only stated that you were migrating from XP then of course they
would've said SuSE although I'm surprised Mandrake didn't come up. Did you
ask in a Linux group and if so which one?
I asked in one of the alt. linux groups i can't remember which though
and they redirected me to a .suse group, i also asked some of my mates
on IRC who use linux.
|
A SuSE group will always recommend SuSE. God knows why you were directed
there though.
| Quote: | Nah i aint, i read up on what SuSE offers and Rosegarden was part of
the package as standard, but it turns out to be unstable. I don't
mind doing a bit of work to get it to wrong, but you're implying that
i may never have a good version of rosegarden as long as i use SuSE..
|
No, I'm saying you are making a lot of work for yourself by compiling from
source at this stage in your Linux development when there are distros with
(apparently) stable versions included.
| Quote: | If thats correct then that to me makes all these linux distros a total
pain in the arse and puts me off using the OS.
|
Then don't use it. You have the choice to use Windows and/or Linux. The
choice is yours.
| Quote: | I've been told about 3-4 of them now, i just want the one...
|
So pick one that does what you want.
| Quote: | it's too
confusing..
|
Only if you make it confusing.
| Quote: | why is there no standardisation here?!
|
Define standardisation.
--
Andy.
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SjT
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:05 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Andy Fraser <andyfraser31@hotmail.com> Kissed me, Licked me, then left
me a note:
| Quote: | A SuSE group will always recommend SuSE. God knows why you were directed
there though.
|
I think it was because 9 had just been released possibly? so there was
a big buzz around about it all and everyone was trying it out.. Thats
the impression i got anyway.
| Quote: | No, I'm saying you are making a lot of work for yourself by compiling from
source at this stage in your Linux development when there are distros with
(apparently) stable versions included.
|
Well it's not bother for me to learn it, after all i would like to
eventually get to the stage of doing it from scratch as Ian suggested,
and to be honest compiling it doesn't look that hard now i've been
shown the command line.. simple extract, config, make and make
install, i can manage that! :D
| Quote: | Then don't use it. You have the choice to use Windows and/or Linux. The
choice is yours.
|
My choice is to try linux and see what it offers me, i don't want to
drop at the first hurdle cause it looks complicated.
| Quote: | I've been told about 3-4 of them now, i just want the one...
So pick one that does what you want.
|
But without trying them i don't know what i want, i don't know of any
of the programs listed until i try them myself, it's a case of chicken
and egg.
I did look at them all when i got SuSE and it looked by far the best
with so much on offer on the supplied disks, how could i go wrong?! :D
| Quote: | why is there no standardisation here?!
Define standardisation.
|
Well, having consistency across all the Distros for starters, why
doesnt everything come down in source and they do away with binaries
completely?!
They would have to make the compiling process nice and easy by using a
nice GUI that you can browse to the compressed files, it reads the
configure script and informs you if you need anything, if you dont
then it just goes ahead building the makefiles and then installs.
Bingo job done.
No worries about what distro you picked, pure and simple.
--
Playing: FIFA 2005.... Thats it atm
Awaiting: PES4 & HALO2 (Yawn yes i know) |
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Andy Fraser
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In alt.comp.linux, SjT uttered the immortal words:
| Quote: | A SuSE group will always recommend SuSE. God knows why you were directed
there though.
I think it was because 9 had just been released possibly? so there was
a big buzz around about it all and everyone was trying it out.. Thats
the impression i got anyway.
|
Quite possibly.
| Quote: | No, I'm saying you are making a lot of work for yourself by compiling from
source at this stage in your Linux development when there are distros with
(apparently) stable versions included.
Well it's not bother for me to learn it,
|
That's fair enough. At least you know what you're getting yourself into and
seem happy with that so go for it.
| Quote: | after all i would like to
eventually get to the stage of doing it from scratch as Ian suggested,
|
I've installed LFS and it's a great learning experience. It was too much
work for me to run as my main distro though so I've stuck with Gentoo.
| Quote: | and to be honest compiling it doesn't look that hard now i've been
shown the command line.. simple extract, config, make and make
install, i can manage that! :D
|
There's always the INSTALL text file as well. Always read that even if it
only says run "./configure && make && make install".
The hardest part is sorting out any dependencies that aren't satisfied.
Always look for those packages on your distro's CDs first. They usually end
in -dev or -devel.
| Quote: | Then don't use it. You have the choice to use Windows and/or Linux. The
choice is yours.
My choice is to try linux and see what it offers me, i don't want to
drop at the first hurdle cause it looks complicated.
|
Fair enough.
| Quote: | I've been told about 3-4 of them now, i just want the one...
So pick one that does what you want.
But without trying them i don't know what i want, i don't know of any
of the programs listed until i try them myself, it's a case of chicken
and egg.
|
In the five years I've been running Linux I've tried Mandrake, Red Hat,
SuSE, Slackware, Debian, Gentoo and LFS and some I've probably forgotten.
I've now settled on Gentoo but ran Debian exclusively for two years before
that. The point I'm making is we've all tried several over the years to
find one that does everything we want.
| Quote: | I did look at them all when i got SuSE and it looked by far the best
with so much on offer on the supplied disks, how could i go wrong?! :D
|
Generally SuSE and Mandrake are the perfect newbie distros. You have special
needs though which SuSE don't seem to meet.
| Quote: | why is there no standardisation here?!
Define standardisation.
Well, having consistency across all the Distros for starters,
|
There is deep down, well pretty much. Distros like Mandrake and SuSE add
their own stuff to lessen the learning curve and make things easier.
| Quote: | why
doesnt everything come down in source and they do away with binaries
completely?!
|
A binary distro will install much, much faster than a source based one.
Gentoo builds from source and this system took around 24 hours to get the
base system, X, KDE and all the dependencies that I specified compiled and
installed. It took four days to get that far on my P3 550MHz. I'm prepared
to go through that but many aren't when they can have a similar system in
anything from 30 mins plus with a binary distro.
| Quote: | They would have to make the compiling process nice and easy
|
There's Gentoo's Portage system.
| Quote: | by using a
nice GUI that you can browse to the compressed files,
|
I believe they exist for Gentoo. You browse the ebuild scripts though. The
actual source files are downloaded by emerge as needed ("emerge -f
packagename" will fetch the sources in advance).
| Quote: | it reads the
configure script and informs you if you need anything,
|
"emerge -av packagename": list everything (packagename plus dependencies)
that will be merged (in verbose mode to show USE flags) then prompt to
continue. If you say yes it installs all dependecies and the package you
requsted.
| Quote: | if you dont
then it just goes ahead building the makefiles and then installs.
Bingo job done.
|
"emerge packagename": build all of packagename's dependencies and the
packagename. An ebuild script must exist for software to be available for
merging but they're fairly easy to write if one doesn't.
| Quote: | No worries about what distro you picked, pure and simple.
|
This post seems to have turned into an advert for Gentoo. I'm just using
Gentoo as an example that what you sugest already exists. If that's what
you're looking for then head over to http://www.gentoo.org.
--
Andy. |
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Richard Watson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:02 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
NOT@yahoo.com (SjT) writes:
| Quote: | My choice is to try linux and see what it offers me, i don't want to
drop at the first hurdle cause it looks complicated.
|
Linux isn't really a choice. You may hear this over and over but it's
just a kernel, essentially a bunch of drivers and some very low level
code. Everything else is optional and what you get by default is
dependant on your distro.
| Quote: | I did look at them all when i got SuSE and it looked by far the best
with so much on offer on the supplied disks, how could i go wrong?! :D
|
I would be amazed if you can't run Rosegarden on Suse. Have you tried
grabbing the correct rpm from here:
http://www.rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=rosegarden&submit=Search+...
| Quote: | Well, having consistency across all the Distros for starters, why
doesnt everything come down in source and they do away with binaries
completely?!
|
That's called Gentoo (or another source distro). It's great but not
everyone wants to wait 2 days for their system to build.
| Quote: | They would have to make the compiling process nice and easy by using a
nice GUI that you can browse to the compressed files, it reads the
configure script and informs you if you need anything, if you dont
then it just goes ahead building the makefiles and then installs.
|
Gentoo is somewhat easier than that.
emerge foo
Will download the source for foo and everything that foo requires and
build and install it all.
--
Richard Watson
http://www.opencolo.com/
High Quality, Value for money colocation |
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SjT
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Andy Fraser <andyfraser31@hotmail.com> Kissed me, Licked me, then left
me a note:
| Quote: | In the five years I've been running Linux I've tried Mandrake, Red Hat,
SuSE, Slackware, Debian, Gentoo and LFS and some I've probably forgotten.
I've now settled on Gentoo but ran Debian exclusively for two years before
that. The point I'm making is we've all tried several over the years to
find one that does everything we want.
|
This is what i'm yet to understand.. how distros can affect software
that you choose to download at a later date. But hopefully i will
once i've used linux for a sustained period.
How can one distro offer you more than the other beyond the software
and drivers that is packaged with it?
I thought that no matter whether i had SuSE, Slackware, Redhat or
Mandrake i could install any linux application and it would run
identical in performance and stability providing the linux kernel was
the same?
| Quote: | I did look at them all when i got SuSE and it looked by far the best
with so much on offer on the supplied disks, how could i go wrong?! :D
Generally SuSE and Mandrake are the perfect newbie distros. You have special
needs though which SuSE don't seem to meet.
|
Could you explain why SuSE doens't meet them?
Do you mean it just doesn't have the software as standard on the
discs?!
Or the official SuSE download sites don't hold binaries for the
software i need?
I just really can't get it into my head the difference between Distros
apart from bundled software and drivers, and maybe a different GUI.
| Quote: | A binary distro will install much, much faster than a source based one.
Gentoo builds from source and this system took around 24 hours to get the
base system, X, KDE and all the dependencies that I specified compiled and
installed. It took four days to get that far on my P3 550MHz. I'm prepared
to go through that but many aren't when they can have a similar system in
anything from 30 mins plus with a binary distro.
|
Holy moly, thats a long wait.
Surely something like that Rosegarden or Cinerella will only take 5
mins max?!
| Quote: | No worries about what distro you picked, pure and simple.
This post seems to have turned into an advert for Gentoo. I'm just using
Gentoo as an example that what you sugest already exists. If that's what
you're looking for then head over to http://www.gentoo.org.
|
Ok will have a look when i get home later. Cheers
--
Playing: FIFA 2005.... Thats it atm
Awaiting: PES4 & HALO2 (Yawn yes i know) |
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SjT
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
"Richard Watson" <tinnedmeat@doilywood.org.uk> Kissed me, Licked me,
then left me a note:
| Quote: | Linux isn't really a choice. You may hear this over and over but it's
just a kernel, essentially a bunch of drivers and some very low level
code. Everything else is optional and what you get by default is
dependant on your distro.
|
To be honest, i only want about 6-7 things on there to start with. I
mean, SuSE is great cause theres hundreds to play around with, i like
that option too to see what linux offers, but to start with i'd be
quite happy with linux running just a browser and email, and then i
could build up what i wanted app by app.
I will bookmark that, i havent installed SuSE yet i'm doing some
groundwork before hand to save me headbutting the monitor when it
comes to doing it for real.
| Quote: | Gentoo is somewhat easier than that.
emerge foo
Will download the source for foo and everything that foo requires and
build and install it all.
|
Really?!
Where does it get it's links from then? i.e. for new software? is it
all auto updated?
I'm liking the sound of Gentoo, apart from the compile wait.. I got an
AMD Barton 2800.. Would this still take a long time if i only had a
few apps installed?
--
Playing: FIFA 2005.... Thats it atm
Awaiting: PES4 & HALO2 (Yawn yes i know) |
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Ian Molton
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:14 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
SjT wrote:
| Quote: | Whether it worked or not isn't the issue, i think that got a lot of
non-computing types into buying a computer.
|
I dont. lets agree to differ...
| Quote: | No i'm referring to games that appeared in gamestores, and even petrol
stations, most people who had quake or Doom had copied them from their
mates and were games for those already into their computers.
Shit like reader rabbit and jungle book for the families kids etc.
|
Those games pushed neither the OS, nor the hardware. my 486 can still
play the majority of that type of game, even the ones written today.
| Quote: | XP seems to enjoy processing it an awful lot. :)
|
XP enjoys processing stuff. I like that concept. it explains a lot ;-)))
| Quote: | Why not use an linux/openoffice system **in parallel** for a bit?
Cause it's too much to ask from the users, i would get silly questions
like 'Wheres my dog gone?!'
|
so transition YOURSELF across, get the experience, THEN help the others.
| Quote: | the philosophy behind much of the linux kernel is to avoid putting large
(therefore buggy) code into the kernel (where its failure can bring down
the system), and instead put the minimum needed for high performance
into the kernel, and the rest into a library (dll if you like) that
provides a nice interface for applications.
Does that mean that once its in the kernel you can't take it out then?
|
What do you mean by that?
| Quote: | Configure script is always included with the source i presume?
|
for the majority of packages.
| Quote: | make invokes the make program, which builds the package according the
the makefiles created by the configure script
make install copies the components you just built to the right places on
your system.
Ok yeah i can see that, is there any GUI's that make this easier if
most installs work along those lines?
|
I saw a gui for this kind of thing once. They crop up from time to time.
thing is they dont offer anything really over the command line way...
| Quote: | if you get errors during the make phase you are probably SOL unless you
can hack the code yourself.
Errors there would be down to my distro yeah?
|
Hard to say. a well written and properly working configure script should
ensure that make never fails, however theres nothing saying that Suse
correctly installed all the little things configure relies on, or that
the creator of the configure script or the tests it runs got everything
right.
it occasionally happens, and its a pain if it does. you probably wont
see it on non-bleeding edge packages though.
| Quote: | I can't see what difference a distro can make personally, as i thought
they all ran on the same linux kernel.
|
the kernel is a single 1-4MB file on the PC. the rest of the OS can
total 20-500MB depending on what you install. the kernel is the least of
your problems.
| Quote: | Well on linux you'd install the driver for the soundcard, and then
rosegarden...
Whatabout JACK and ALSPA - or is ALSPA my soundcard driver (Plus other
things)?
|
you mean LADSPA? if rosegarden requires them you will need to install
them. if they are optional you wont but will suffer reduced functionality.
| Quote: | Do you know if JACK routers the sound from ALSPA to rosegarden.. i
can't see why its essential otherwise?
|
I dont know what it does really I havent ever used it. seems like some
kind of virtual patch cable from what someone else said.
| Quote: | So why would anyone choose to compile into the kernel?! it seems
madness to want to do so when it's both harder and unbeneficial.
|
There are reasons. a normal user would probably not wat to compile into
the kernel.
eg. a business might deploy 50000 identical PCs, and choose to use a
non-modular kernel so they would only need to maintain one file on their
boot server.
security concious types dont like the module loading facility to be
available, although I consider their approach to be somewhat of a red
herring given things like /dev/kmem exist.
| Quote: | With that in mind it's pretty secure,
unless they accept unpatched source code to make it into the final
release.
|
Which they wont, of course. Im glad you can see how it works now though.
[wine]
| Quote: | And whatabout shared dll's that each app uses then? do you make a fake
windows/system32 folder somewhere?!
|
Yep, although its not really fake.
linux keeps all its "dlls" (called shared libraries or .so files) in
*/lib. you do the same with the windows dlls.
you can choose to install them system-wide or just for your user, or a
hybrid mix of the two. |
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Ian Molton
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:28 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
SjT wrote:
| Quote: | Nah i aint, i read up on what SuSE offers and Rosegarden was part of
the package as standard, but it turns out to be unstable.
|
in linux circles the 'bleeding edge' is considered unstable. if thats
what suse say it could just mean suse consider the package too up to
date to be stable.
| Quote: | I don't
mind doing a bit of work to get it to wrong, but you're implying that
i may never have a good version of rosegarden as long as i use SuSE..
|
No, just that you might have to build it yourself since SUSE may not
package a good enough version.
| Quote: | Which i know find out doesn't run correctly with it.
Then use another distro and make things easy for yourself.
I've been told about 3-4 of them now, i just want the one... it's too
confusing.. why is there no standardisation here?!
|
Theres a LOT of standardisation. you can run software from one distro
happily on another.
The only real difference between the distros are:
1) How competantly put together they are
2) the packaging system in use (.RPM, .deb, etc.) (sort of like .cab files)
3) The bundle that comes with them
4) the 'layout' of the defaults used in the desktop environments supplied.
Thus almost any aspect of a distro can be made to work like any other. |
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Andy Fraser
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:47 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In alt.comp.linux, SjT uttered the immortal words:
| Quote: | In the five years I've been running Linux I've tried Mandrake, Red Hat,
SuSE, Slackware, Debian, Gentoo and LFS and some I've probably forgotten.
I've now settled on Gentoo but ran Debian exclusively for two years before
that. The point I'm making is we've all tried several over the years to
find one that does everything we want.
This is what i'm yet to understand.. how distros can affect software
that you choose to download at a later date. But hopefully i will
once i've used linux for a sustained period.
How can one distro offer you more than the other beyond the software
and drivers that is packaged with it?
I thought that no matter whether i had SuSE, Slackware, Redhat or
Mandrake i could install any linux application and it would run
identical in performance and stability providing the linux kernel was
the same?
|
Yes and no. The kernel has little bearing on apps. I can switch between a
2.4 series kernel and a 2.6 series kernel with no recompiling of any apps
if I want.
The actual differences between distros are too numerous to mention in a
single post. Most of them make no real difference. Some distros have a GUI
config tool, some don't. There are different package managment tools used
by different distros that are incompatible with each other. Some subtle
differences in library versions, library names and the install locations
mean that a Mandrake 9 RPM of a package generally won't work on Fedora or
even another version of Mandrake. There are also differences in philosophy.
This paragraph is very, very general. You'd have to visit each site and use
each distro to know exactly what all the differences are.
Compiling from source shouldn't really matter but I can't comment of
individual apps on individual distros.
| Quote: | I did look at them all when i got SuSE and it looked by far the best
with so much on offer on the supplied disks, how could i go wrong?! :D
Generally SuSE and Mandrake are the perfect newbie distros. You have
special needs though which SuSE don't seem to meet.
Could you explain why SuSE doens't meet them?
Do you mean it just doesn't have the software as standard on the
discs?!
|
Yes. IMHO software should be installed via the package management system so
it knows exactly what files are installed and where and should prevent you
from breaking your system. If you compile more than just an app from source
you could end up with library confilcts. You could end up overwritting an
essemtial library and total break your system.
| Quote: | A binary distro will install much, much faster than a source based one.
Gentoo builds from source and this system took around 24 hours to get the
base system, X, KDE and all the dependencies that I specified compiled and
installed. It took four days to get that far on my P3 550MHz. I'm prepared
to go through that but many aren't when they can have a similar system in
anything from 30 mins plus with a binary distro.
Holy moly, thats a long wait.
|
Now you understand why more people aren't using source distros.
| Quote: | Surely something like that Rosegarden or Cinerella will only take 5
mins max?!
|
More than 5 mins but certainly less than 30 mins each.
--
Andy. |
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Ian Molton
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
SjT wrote:
| Quote: | Gentoo is somewhat easier than that.
emerge foo
Will download the source for foo and everything that foo requires and
build and install it all.
Really?!
Where does it get it's links from then? i.e. for new software? is it
all auto updated?
I'm liking the sound of Gentoo, apart from the compile wait.. I got an
AMD Barton 2800.. Would this still take a long time if i only had a
few apps installed?
|
I'd avoid gentoo at least until you have mor elinux knowledge.
(and then I'd recommend LFS butIm biased) |
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Ian Molton
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
SjT wrote:
| Quote: | This is what i'm yet to understand.. how distros can affect software
that you choose to download at a later date. But hopefully i will
once i've used linux for a sustained period.
How can one distro offer you more than the other beyond the software
and drivers that is packaged with it?
|
Thats exactly the point - a distro may contain a modified version or not
contain a version at all, of a dependancy for a program, for example.
basically you CAN do anything on one linux distro that you can on
another. It just might be much harder in one that another.
| Quote: | Holy moly, thats a long wait.
Surely something like that Rosegarden or Cinerella will only take 5
mins max?!
|
Having never built either I can only say that I would doubt it'd be more
than 20. |
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Andy Fraser
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In alt.comp.linux, SjT uttered the immortal words:
| Quote: | Gentoo is somewhat easier than that.
emerge foo
Will download the source for foo and everything that foo requires and
build and install it all.
Really?!
|
Yes. I told you that in my post too.
| Quote: | Where does it get it's links from then? i.e. for new software? is it
all auto updated?
|
Gentoo mirrors and URLs in ebuilds mainly. Some stuff, like Sun's Java
stuff, needs to be manually downloaded, probably due to licensing. They
usually give a URL to copy and paste into a browser. You synchronise the
Portage tree (where the ebuild scripts live) against a Portage mirror.
| Quote: | I'm liking the sound of Gentoo, apart from the compile wait.. I got an
AMD Barton 2800.. Would this still take a long time if i only had a
few apps installed?
|
I've got the 2600. You should be able to get a bootable, command line only
system in an afternoon easily. Set up X.org in the late afternoon/early
evening and leave KDE or Gnome compiling for the rest of the evening and
overnight and all being well you have a custom built system fully working
by morning. All the documentation for installation, X, ALSA and KDE/Gnome
is on-line at Gentoo's site.
--
Andy. |
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SjT
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:25 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com> Kissed me, Licked me, then left me a note:
| Quote: | Whether it worked or not isn't the issue, i think that got a lot of
non-computing types into buying a computer.
I dont. lets agree to differ...
|
Unfortunately i'm really busy at work this week -groan- so can't reply
to these posts, but you've all been a great help, can't wait to try
cinerella and rosegarden etc. will probably post back what i think
when i get the chance.
Thanks again.
--
Playing: FIFA 2005.... Thats it atm
Awaiting: PES4 & HALO2 (Yawn yes i know) |
|
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