| Author |
Message |
Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
Guest
|
 Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:39 pm Post subject:
Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Does anyone have any experience editing video in Linux? From my brief
searches on Google, it looks like Linux might well be a serious competitor
to traditional desktop video editing OSes. Linux now has Firewire support as
well as some awesome looking (and free) software like Cinerella and Cine
Paint (AKA Film Gimp).
So, can I dump Premiere Pro on WinXP and move entirely to Linux?
I know that Linux can be a pain to administer. In fact it's pretty damn ugly
in places.
I've been brought up on Windows but I'm very eager to learn about the pros
and cons of using Linux for my video production. I've read many press
releases from the likes of DreamWorks, ILM and Pixar all saying that they're
running Linux on their workstations and render farms and a lot of recently
released software for running grading / compositing software runs on Linux.
And there are some impressive open-source and free film applications like
Film Gimp and Cinerella. And real hot-shots contribute code to Film Gimp
(like Dreamworks and ILM). And, of course, there are the disadvantages of
Linux: the time spent administering the OS, the relatively poor support for
video applications etc.
An important issue is: do you want to spend your life tinkering with
technology or do you want to make movies? On the surface this looks like a
fatal problem for Linux: administering Linux WILL take time away from
filmmaking.
However, if you're in the early stages of setting up a production company
with four people who will need editing workstations, then the cost of having
Windows XP + Premiere Pro (or Avid XPress) for 4+ computers starts to
approach £2000. And guess what else we can do with £2000? Make a decent
short film. So using Linux can *increase* your productivity as a filmmaker
(and don't forget that the cost of Windows is not one-off... you need to pay
for upgrades over the years).
All in all I think the only rational way for me to reach a conclusion is to
install Cinerella and Film Gimp on my new workstation (which'll be AMD64 so
only Linux will make full use of the processor). Of course, I'll dual-boot
with XP for now.
But, before I do that, please may I ask for your views and opinions on the
use of Linux as a digital video editing environment?
Thanks a lot,
Daniel Kelly
Nickname = Jack
www.XLK.org.uk
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darren
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack) wrote:
| Quote: | Does anyone have any experience editing video in Linux? From my brief
searches on Google, it looks like Linux might well be a serious competitor
to traditional desktop video editing OSes. Linux now has Firewire support as
well as some awesome looking (and free) software like Cinerella and Cine
Paint (AKA Film Gimp).
So, can I dump Premiere Pro on WinXP and move entirely to Linux?
I've heard a lot of good people in several Groups recommend kdenlive. |
Cinelerra is supposed to be half decent, too.
| Quote: | I know that Linux can be a pain to administer. In fact it's pretty damn ugly
in places.
Depends which distro you choose. Mandrake holds a new users hand pretty |
well.
<snip>
| Quote: | However, if you're in the early stages of setting up a production company
with four people who will need editing workstations, then the cost of having
Windows XP + Premiere Pro (or Avid XPress) for 4+ computers starts to
approach £2000. And guess what else we can do with £2000? Make a decent
short film. So using Linux can *increase* your productivity as a filmmaker
(and don't forget that the cost of Windows is not one-off... you need to pay
for upgrades over the years).
Introducing OSS in any form is usually a good thing from many points of |
view :-)
| Quote: | All in all I think the only rational way for me to reach a conclusion is to
install Cinerella and Film Gimp on my new workstation (which'll be AMD64 so
only Linux will make full use of the processor). Of course, I'll dual-boot
with XP for now.
Dual boot is the way to go. Don't deprive yourself of something that is |
childs play on Windows, but do try to learn the Linux/Open Source way
meantime. The Linux way tends to be the correct way, producing work to
recognised standards, but ease may suffer along the way. Over time, you
will find yourself booting into Windows less and less.
| Quote: | But, before I do that, please may I ask for your views and opinions on the
use of Linux as a digital video editing environment?
As I said, give kdenlive a whirl as well as Cinelerra. If you need to do |
any accompanying audio editing, try Audacity. |
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Paul Sherwin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:56 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:39:46 +0100, "Daniel Kelly \(AKA Jack\)"
<d.kellyNOSPAM@NOSPAM.ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
I know that Linux can be a pain to administer. In fact it's pretty damn ugly
in places.
It all depends what you want to do. Linux is basically Unix and is |
administered in the same way. This can make initial configuration
difficult for people who only have a Windows desktop background.
However, once you have all your apps installed and working there's
much less day to day administration to be done, because Linux is
inherently more secure than most Windows setups. If you think the
video apps are good, it's worth doing an installation of something
newbie friendly like Mandrake or Suse and playing around with it -
it'll only cost you your time.
HTH, Paul
--
Paul Sherwin Consulting http://paulsherwin.co.uk |
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Tony Morgan
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:25 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In message <cll9hj$1000$1@uns-a.ucl.ac.uk>, "Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)"
<d.kellyNOSPAM@NOSPAM.ucl.ac.uk> writes
Snipped....
This sort of question has been asked before, though mainly by folk
running Linux on a home computer. I can't remember the exact
conclusions, but there is a sparsity of video editing software for
Linux. In fact there isn't a vast choice for the Mac (certainly far less
than for Windoze)..
IIRC those who wanted to keep Linux decided to dual-boot their system.
That leaves the door open.
I can't speak for Premiere (the last version I used was 6.5 which didn't
support shared/network working), but Vegas 5 goes some way towards
"shared working". AFAIR Vegas also allows (officially) its installation
on up to three machines and provides "workflow" mechanisms for an
editing studio environment - though I haven't explored this aspect of
it.
Bearing in mind that for a professional environment, you're not only
going to have to invest in machines with a bit of clout, software, SCSI
Raid HDDs, plus dual monitors, you seem to be talking near-on £2000 per
workstation. So your budget seems a little sparse I'm afraid.
Assuming that you're in a Windoze environment then I can't see any
advantage in running server-client. You'd probably be OK with judicious
set-up of shares.
But as I've pointed out, I have no actual experience in this direction
and I'm basing my views on what has been said here in the past.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Tony Morgan
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In message <2u6qqhF2539jeU1@uni-berlin.de>, darren <asifim@opera.com>
writes
Snipped....
| Quote: | As I said, give kdenlive a whirl as well as Cinelerra. If you need to
do any accompanying audio editing, try Audacity.
|
For professionals, time is money. Trying this and trying that (while
being very interesting) is not commercial and likely to end in tears
IMHO. Even after costing out the learning curves, it takes time (aka
money) to get the workflow environment sorted out.
And at £2K (or more) per workstation, you've got to ensure that you're
going to get a ROI. Ditto with the cost of staff getting up to speed.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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ray
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:39:46 +0100, Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack) wrote:
| Quote: | Does anyone have any experience editing video in Linux? From my brief
searches on Google, it looks like Linux might well be a serious competitor
to traditional desktop video editing OSes. Linux now has Firewire support as
well as some awesome looking (and free) software like Cinerella and Cine
Paint (AKA Film Gimp).
So, can I dump Premiere Pro on WinXP and move entirely to Linux?
I know that Linux can be a pain to administer. In fact it's pretty damn ugly
in places.
I've been brought up on Windows but I'm very eager to learn about the pros
and cons of using Linux for my video production. I've read many press
releases from the likes of DreamWorks, ILM and Pixar all saying that they're
running Linux on their workstations and render farms and a lot of recently
released software for running grading / compositing software runs on Linux.
And there are some impressive open-source and free film applications like
Film Gimp and Cinerella. And real hot-shots contribute code to Film Gimp
(like Dreamworks and ILM). And, of course, there are the disadvantages of
Linux: the time spent administering the OS, the relatively poor support for
video applications etc.
An important issue is: do you want to spend your life tinkering with
technology or do you want to make movies? On the surface this looks like a
fatal problem for Linux: administering Linux WILL take time away from
filmmaking.
|
This is mostly MS FUD. I worked for the U.S. Defense Department for 30
years, doing scientific software support and development. During the last
3 or 4 years, I was also doing the Linux administration as a part time
function, and it was my observation that it was a lot less demanding than
the full time job administring the MS office systems. Linux is much easier
to administer - for one thing no viruses or worms to speak of, which is a
major concern for any MS system with internet access. Mostly, you install
Linux and it runs. |
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ray
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:38 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:34:39 +0100, Tony Morgan wrote:
| Quote: | In message <2u6qqhF2539jeU1@uni-berlin.de>, darren <asifim@opera.com
writes
Snipped....
As I said, give kdenlive a whirl as well as Cinelerra. If you need to
do any accompanying audio editing, try Audacity.
For professionals, time is money. Trying this and trying that (while
being very interesting) is not commercial and likely to end in tears
IMHO. Even after costing out the learning curves, it takes time (aka
money) to get the workflow environment sorted out.
And at £2K (or more) per workstation, you've got to ensure that you're
going to get a ROI. Ditto with the cost of staff getting up to speed.
|
Point taken. It would be a good idea to detail one capable person to do a
prototype system, and see how that works out. |
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J.O. Aho
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Tony Morgan wrote:
| Quote: | In message <2u6qqhF2539jeU1@uni-berlin.de>, darren <asifim@opera.com
writes
Snipped....
As I said, give kdenlive a whirl as well as Cinelerra. If you need to
do any accompanying audio editing, try Audacity.
For professionals, time is money. Trying this and trying that (while
being very interesting) is not commercial and likely to end in tears
IMHO. Even after costing out the learning curves, it takes time (aka
money) to get the workflow environment sorted out.
And at £2K (or more) per workstation, you've got to ensure that you're
going to get a ROI. Ditto with the cost of staff getting up to speed.
|
Yes, it's a cost to test things out, that may be why companies buys complete
solutions from say RedHat. I know that many small film companies has moved
over to linux to make special effects and edit movies, but sadly I don't know
the names of the software, which may even be commercials.
//Aho |
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Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:29 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
This is all true... I was hoping to teach myself Linux and Linux editing in
my own time... and then start to do paid jobs on Linux in a year's time or
so.
"Tony Morgan" <tonymorgan@xtreme.pipex.net> wrote in message
news:j3ZP6WDvJlfBFwx$@zen54488.dircon.co.uk...
| Quote: | In message <2u6qqhF2539jeU1@uni-berlin.de>, darren <asifim@opera.com
writes
Snipped....
As I said, give kdenlive a whirl as well as Cinelerra. If you need to
do any accompanying audio editing, try Audacity.
For professionals, time is money. Trying this and trying that (while
being very interesting) is not commercial and likely to end in tears
IMHO. Even after costing out the learning curves, it takes time (aka
money) to get the workflow environment sorted out.
And at £2K (or more) per workstation, you've got to ensure that you're
going to get a ROI. Ditto with the cost of staff getting up to speed.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
|
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| Back to top |
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Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
| Quote: | Point taken. It would be a good idea to detail one capable person to do a
prototype system, and see how that works out.
|
Exactly what I'm planing to do - thanks.
"ray" <ray@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:2u75qiF26b6bqU2@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:34:39 +0100, Tony Morgan wrote:
In message <2u6qqhF2539jeU1@uni-berlin.de>, darren <asifim@opera.com
writes
Snipped....
As I said, give kdenlive a whirl as well as Cinelerra. If you need to
do any accompanying audio editing, try Audacity.
For professionals, time is money. Trying this and trying that (while
being very interesting) is not commercial and likely to end in tears
IMHO. Even after costing out the learning curves, it takes time (aka
money) to get the workflow environment sorted out.
And at £2K (or more) per workstation, you've got to ensure that you're
going to get a ROI. Ditto with the cost of staff getting up to speed.
Point taken. It would be a good idea to detail one capable person to do a
prototype system, and see how that works out.
|
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Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
OK, thanks loads for your reply.
Jack
"Tony Morgan" <tonymorgan@xtreme.pipex.net> wrote in message
news:6HNJ2XC8AlfBFwRu@zen54488.dircon.co.uk...
| Quote: | In message <cll9hj$1000$1@uns-a.ucl.ac.uk>, "Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)"
d.kellyNOSPAM@NOSPAM.ucl.ac.uk> writes
Snipped....
This sort of question has been asked before, though mainly by folk
running Linux on a home computer. I can't remember the exact
conclusions, but there is a sparsity of video editing software for
Linux. In fact there isn't a vast choice for the Mac (certainly far less
than for Windoze)..
IIRC those who wanted to keep Linux decided to dual-boot their system.
That leaves the door open.
I can't speak for Premiere (the last version I used was 6.5 which didn't
support shared/network working), but Vegas 5 goes some way towards
"shared working". AFAIR Vegas also allows (officially) its installation
on up to three machines and provides "workflow" mechanisms for an
editing studio environment - though I haven't explored this aspect of
it.
Bearing in mind that for a professional environment, you're not only
going to have to invest in machines with a bit of clout, software, SCSI
Raid HDDs, plus dual monitors, you seem to be talking near-on £2000 per
workstation. So your budget seems a little sparse I'm afraid.
Assuming that you're in a Windoze environment then I can't see any
advantage in running server-client. You'd probably be OK with judicious
set-up of shares.
But as I've pointed out, I have no actual experience in this direction
and I'm basing my views on what has been said here in the past.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
|
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| Back to top |
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Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Cool, thanks a lot for your reply.
Jack
"ray" <ray@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:2u75knF26b6bqU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:39:46 +0100, Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack) wrote:
Does anyone have any experience editing video in Linux? From my brief
searches on Google, it looks like Linux might well be a serious
competitor
to traditional desktop video editing OSes. Linux now has Firewire
support as
well as some awesome looking (and free) software like Cinerella and Cine
Paint (AKA Film Gimp).
So, can I dump Premiere Pro on WinXP and move entirely to Linux?
I know that Linux can be a pain to administer. In fact it's pretty damn
ugly
in places.
I've been brought up on Windows but I'm very eager to learn about the
pros
and cons of using Linux for my video production. I've read many press
releases from the likes of DreamWorks, ILM and Pixar all saying that
they're
running Linux on their workstations and render farms and a lot of
recently
released software for running grading / compositing software runs on
Linux.
And there are some impressive open-source and free film applications
like
Film Gimp and Cinerella. And real hot-shots contribute code to Film
Gimp
(like Dreamworks and ILM). And, of course, there are the disadvantages
of
Linux: the time spent administering the OS, the relatively poor support
for
video applications etc.
An important issue is: do you want to spend your life tinkering with
technology or do you want to make movies? On the surface this looks
like a
fatal problem for Linux: administering Linux WILL take time away from
filmmaking.
This is mostly MS FUD. I worked for the U.S. Defense Department for 30
years, doing scientific software support and development. During the last
3 or 4 years, I was also doing the Linux administration as a part time
function, and it was my observation that it was a lot less demanding than
the full time job administring the MS office systems. Linux is much easier
to administer - for one thing no viruses or worms to speak of, which is a
major concern for any MS system with internet access. Mostly, you install
Linux and it runs.
|
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| Back to top |
|
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Tony Morgan
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In message <2u75qiF26b6bqU2@uni-berlin.de>, ray <ray@zianet.com> writes
| Quote: | On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:34:39 +0100, Tony Morgan wrote:
In message <2u6qqhF2539jeU1@uni-berlin.de>, darren <asifim@opera.com
writes
Snipped....
As I said, give kdenlive a whirl as well as Cinelerra. If you need to
do any accompanying audio editing, try Audacity.
For professionals, time is money. Trying this and trying that (while
being very interesting) is not commercial and likely to end in tears
IMHO. Even after costing out the learning curves, it takes time (aka
money) to get the workflow environment sorted out.
And at £2K (or more) per workstation, you've got to ensure that you're
going to get a ROI. Ditto with the cost of staff getting up to speed.
Point taken. It would be a good idea to detail one capable person to do a
prototype system, and see how that works out.
I'd suggest it's a bit more (and more fundamental) than that. Add up all |
the setup costs - software/hardware/training/initial promotion [1].
Distribute that over (say) 12 months. Then add up the monthly ongoing
costs to that - salaries/advertising/lease of
premises/lighting/heating/telephone/consumables. You've also got to
factor in the cost of servicing the capital outlay of [1] (aka bank
interest). And perhaps remember that if you already have the capital to
hand, it would otherwise be earning interest if invested, so you *must*
factor it in. You've now got a cost per month before *any* return -
that's what you've got to bring in *just to break even* without *any*
profit whatsoever.
Salaries have to also be factored by 52/46 (to account for annual/bank
holidays - you still have to pay staff even when they aren't actually
doing work). And in the UK at least, you also have to factor in
employer's National Insurance contributions (about 10% of salaries) and
that's over the whole 52 weeks.
Obviously your choice of applications will affect the setup costs, and
will make an impact on your setup costs, but as you can see there's far
more to it than that.
I'd also suggest that a prototype system does not necessarily relate to
the cost/benefits when translated to a 4-up video editing enterprise
when workflows will have a significant impact.
Personally (and it *is* only my view) I think that Jack should abandon
thoughts about Linux and go "mainstream" - he'd be much less likely to
encounter unforeseen problems that could bring the whole enterprise
crashing about his ears (and pocket) :-)
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Tony Morgan
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:56 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In message <clm1hu$oj2$1@uns-a.ucl.ac.uk>, "Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)"
<d.kellyNOSPAM@NOSPAM.ucl.ac.uk> writes
| Quote: | This is all true... I was hoping to teach myself Linux and Linux
editing in my own time... and then start to do paid jobs on Linux in a
year's time or so.
|
In which case, Jack, don't you think it better to run Linux on your home
computer, and when you feel you're beginning to get up to speed, invest
in a formal course (perhaps gaining a formal Linux certification). All
assuming that you're currently in a nine-to-five job.
IME there's only one area where Linux is a "de facto" core
infrastructure, and that's in Web delivery in association with
Apache/PHP/MySQL.
Doing Video Editing on Linux as a minority of one doesn't seem to me to
be a very good idea. You're unlikely to source any sort of peer-support
and are likely to spend all your time chasing your tail solving your own
problems on your own (again at a cost to any commercial aspirations)..
Sorry to be negative - but I prefer to call it pragmatism :-)
Since I see you're in the UK, to get your head around Linux with the aim
of job aspirations, I'd suggest that you combine it with Apache, PHP and
MySQL [1]. If you also sign up for a broadband account with Zen with 8
static IPs you can also start getting revenue as you go.
[1] I'd recommend SOKKIT.
Anyway - sorry all - I've now drifted off Video Editing enterprise. So
I'll shut up :-)
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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J.O. Aho
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:56 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Tony Morgan wrote:
| Quote: | I'd suggest it's a bit more (and more fundamental) than that. Add up all
the setup costs - software/hardware/training/initial promotion [1].
Distribute that over (say) 12 months. Then add up the monthly ongoing
costs to that - salaries/advertising/lease of
premises/lighting/heating/telephone/consumables. You've also got to
factor in the cost of servicing the capital outlay of [1] (aka bank
interest). And perhaps remember that if you already have the capital to
hand, it would otherwise be earning interest if invested, so you *must*
factor it in. You've now got a cost per month before *any* return -
that's what you've got to bring in *just to break even* without *any*
profit whatsoever.
Salaries have to also be factored by 52/46 (to account for annual/bank
holidays - you still have to pay staff even when they aren't actually
doing work). And in the UK at least, you also have to factor in
employer's National Insurance contributions (about 10% of salaries) and
that's over the whole 52 weeks.
Obviously your choice of applications will affect the setup costs, and
will make an impact on your setup costs, but as you can see there's far
more to it than that.
I'd also suggest that a prototype system does not necessarily relate to
the cost/benefits when translated to a 4-up video editing enterprise
when workflows will have a significant impact.
|
I must disagree with you here, IMHO it's bad to assume that everyone are
already skilled in using the software what the company already have, there are
more than one software even for MSWin that can be used, so there may be costs
to train the staff anyway, and don't forget when a software is updated, it may
change quite a lot, which makes the staff to need retraining and so on.
Then we have the licens cost of the software to use, those are usually per
machine and not that cheap, which can make that the usage of the MSWin based
system would be a lot more than change to a *nix based system with new
software and pay the training and sallery without a product for a month.
Filesystems used in MSWin aren't really up to for a good preformance for
video, where *nix based systems can handle filesystems which are better made
for videostreams and the storage setup have many major features that is
missing in the MSWin world.
In this case it can be good to learn to use both GNU/Linux and MSWin based
applications, this will be to more of an advantige than those who do only
learn MSWin based software, now when studios have started to move over to
cheap solution provided for GNU/Linux systems.
//Aho |
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