| Author |
Message |
Tony Morgan
Guest
|
 Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:05 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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In message <2u9f09F26l030U1@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com>
writes
| Quote: | Tony Morgan wrote:
bab5> Delenn: 'Why do you humans always say that before doing
something massively unwise' Sinclair: 'tradition' </bab5
Because Linus Torvalds was (and still is) a Womble.
Thats a real cohesive argument you got there...
Whenever folk start wombling on about Linux, I like to quote "the man"
"It will never be the kind of professional OS that Hurd will be (in
the next century or so), but it's a nice learning tool".
See http://www.li.org/linuxhistory.php
LOL. the hurd... haha.
|
Yes, but it's Womblese (aka Swedish) :-)
It's one of those things that the person often greatly regrets saying.
Even Billy Goates must sometimes remember saying "There's no future in
the Internet", and TBL saying (about the Web) "It's only an idea and may
never catch on". It must be his (TBL's) biggest regret that he never
took any patents out on it.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info
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Tony Morgan
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In message <417f76b4.182435515@130.133.1.4>, SjT <NOT@yahoo.com> writes
| Quote: | I'm with stupid ---> "Daniel Kelly \(AKA Jack\)"
d.kellyNOSPAM@NOSPAM.ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
So, can I dump Premiere Pro on WinXP and move entirely to Linux?
I tried linux out for video editing and the quality just wasn't there
(This was over a 1.5 years ago though.)
However, if you're in the early stages of setting up a production company
with four people who will need editing workstations, then the cost of having
Windows XP + Premiere Pro (or Avid XPress) for 4+ computers starts to
approach £2000. And guess what else we can do with £2000? Make a decent
short film.
Well it may be £2000 per workstation, but compare that to a hardware
solution and you have saved so much money it's unreal.
|
Yes, but it's worth remembering that only seven years ago, you'd be
paying a minimum of £20K for a single-station NLE (with a damned sight
less capability than an entry level video editor of today) costing a lot
less than £1K. And in real terms that £20K is worth about £100K in
today's money.
| Quote: |
Linux would probably be cheaper, but lets be honest the support isn't
there and you're constantly relying on open source to get the software
updated. And being open source you have the issue that you could lose
your work at any minute.
Good work to those that are using linux for video editing though,
hopefully they will build the foundations of a good Video OS that we
can move to in a few years time?! Who knows :D
My experiences of linux have always left it out of favour with windows
xp though, purely because of the method to install programs and
drivers and the lack of software.
I agree entirely. But we have to remember that those who spend time (aka |
money) on developing NLE video editors *must* be able to see a return on
their investment. And recovery of the development cost depends on sales
of more than the few that would be bought by those who are prepared to
go the Linux route *and* have a need for a performance NLE. And I'd
suggest that the time is a long way off before we see that happen.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Tony Morgan
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:27 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In message <2u9f8mF27i046U1@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com>
writes
Snipped....
| Quote: | besides - if you HAVE the source, you arent forced to wait - if you
really want something, you can write it yourself, or pay someone else
to - no waiting required.
|
True Ian, but if you run a business on that basis you'll soon be
out-of-business.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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MJ Ray
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:50 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Tony Morgan <tonymorgan@xtreme.pipex.net> wrote:
| Quote: | In message <2u9f8mF27i046U1@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com
writes
Snipped....
besides - if you HAVE the source, you arent forced to wait - if you
really want something, you can write it yourself, or pay someone else
to - no waiting required.
True Ian, but if you run a business on that basis you'll soon be
out-of-business.
|
That depends if you do the market research, identify it and make it part
of your plan. I'd be a lot more suspicious of a business plan that says
"we are going to throw our success at the mercy of one software company"
but I'm not a banker.
--
So far, so good.
So far, so good.
So far, so good.
It's not the falling that hurts. |
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SjT
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
I'm with stupid ---> Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com> wrote:
| Quote: | but lets be honest the support isn't there
Too vague - you need to qualify that.
|
Well, there's no guarantee's that the problems you have will be sorted
out, you have to rely on someone who either cares about other users or
has the same problems who can code to sort them.
| Quote: | and you're constantly relying on open source to get the software
updated.
This differs from constantly waiting for a new binary release (also an
option available with most linux stuff) how?
|
It differs in the fact that OSS can be dropped at the flick of a hand.
| Quote: | besides - if you HAVE the source, you arent forced to wait - if you
really want something, you can write it yourself, or pay someone else to
- no waiting required.
|
Sure you can, and i would linux to succeed.
But i prefere the hassle free method that i current employ using
windows and the vast fully supported commercial software that is
available.
| Quote: | And being open source you have the issue that you could lose
your work at any minute.
Why? are you suggesting that OSS is inherently less stable than closed
source stuff?
|
No, but i would use OSS as i would CSS Beta software.
The majority of OSS has been in the past pretty poor compared to
commercial software which is totally understandable, however it is
catching up.. But until it has caught up i personally am not
interested in wasting time playing with it.
If i had the time i would welcome linux with open arms and love all it
has to offer, sadly i don't. And therefore i'm quite happy to pay
over the odds for software that works and is fully supported by a
company with dedicated support staff.
--
Playing: FIFA 2005.... Thats it atm
Awaiting: PES4 & HALO2 (Yawn yes i know) |
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Ian Molton
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:43 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Tony Morgan wrote:
| Quote: | In message <2u9f8mF27i046U1@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com
writes
Snipped....
besides - if you HAVE the source, you arent forced to wait - if you
really want something, you can write it yourself, or pay someone else
to - no waiting required.
True Ian, but if you run a business on that basis you'll soon be
out-of-business.
|
I used to work for claranet. they made extensive use of OSS and I was
employed to make extensive modifications / additions to it.
Claranet are still around and have been for a long time.
Whats your point? |
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Ian Molton
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
SjT wrote:
| Quote: | I'm with stupid ---> Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com> wrote:
but lets be honest the support isn't there
Too vague - you need to qualify that.
Well, there's no guarantee's that the problems you have will be sorted
out,
|
How many times hacve we seen glaring bugs / issues go unfixed in windows
/ office / name your package ?
| Quote: | you have to rely on someone who either cares about other users or
has the same problems who can code to sort them.
|
See below...
| Quote: | and you're constantly relying on open source to get the software
updated.
This differs from constantly waiting for a new binary release (also an
option available with most linux stuff) how?
It differs in the fact that OSS can be dropped at the flick of a hand.
|
Ok, heres below.
OSS *can* be dropped 'just like that', but then, so can commercial
software (ever read a typical EULA?)
However often linux software (OSS in general) is a labour of love, and
is lovingly maintained (sometimes its just something to scratch an itch
and discarded when 'dinished' too, I'll admit). OSS software can also be
commercial, semi commercial, is often sponsored...
On top of all that, if an OSS and equivalent CSS program are dropped
'just like that' with the CSS prog you're fucked. with the OSS you can
at least modify it or pay someone else to modify it, because you have
the source.
| Quote: | No, but i would use OSS as i would CSS Beta software.
|
Despite the fact that OSS alpha releases are often more stable than CSS
finals...
| Quote: | The majority of OSS has been in the past pretty poor compared to
commercial software which is totally understandable, however it is
catching up.. But until it has caught up i personally am not
interested in wasting time playing with it.
|
In many areas it has caught up and surpassed CSS.
| Quote: | If i had the time i would welcome linux with open arms and love all it
has to offer, sadly i don't. And therefore i'm quite happy to pay
over the odds for software that works and is fully supported by a
company with dedicated support staff.
|
I'll freely admit that linux video editing is still in its infancy. |
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Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:03 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Hmm...that approach seemed to work for DreamWorks, ILM and Pixar!
"Tony Morgan" <tonymorgan@xtreme.pipex.net> wrote in message
news:2oA6tACLJ6fBFwCO@zen54488.dircon.co.uk...
| Quote: | In message <2u9f8mF27i046U1@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com
writes
Snipped....
besides - if you HAVE the source, you arent forced to wait - if you
really want something, you can write it yourself, or pay someone else
to - no waiting required.
True Ian, but if you run a business on that basis you'll soon be
out-of-business.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
|
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J.O. Aho
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:27 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack) wrote:
| Quote: | Does anyone have any experience editing video in Linux? From my brief
searches on Google, it looks like Linux might well be a serious competitor
to traditional desktop video editing OSes. Linux now has Firewire support as
well as some awesome looking (and free) software like Cinerella and Cine
Paint (AKA Film Gimp).
So, can I dump Premiere Pro on WinXP and move entirely to Linux?
I know that Linux can be a pain to administer. In fact it's pretty damn ugly
in places.
|
IMHO *nix is wonderfull for the administrators, as they can do so much more
than just decide who gets a login and who is allowed to install software.
| Quote: | I've been brought up on Windows but I'm very eager to learn about the pros
and cons of using Linux for my video production. I've read many press
releases from the likes of DreamWorks, ILM and Pixar all saying that they're
running Linux on their workstations and render farms and a lot of recently
released software for running grading / compositing software runs on Linux.
|
Yes, there seems to be a great deal of studios who has switched over to linux,
I guess mostly for making special effects.
| Quote: | And there are some impressive open-source and free film applications like
Film Gimp and Cinerella. And real hot-shots contribute code to Film Gimp
(like Dreamworks and ILM). And, of course, there are the disadvantages of
Linux: the time spent administering the OS, the relatively poor support for
video applications etc.
|
Administrating linux is a lot easier and more secure than let say microsoft
windows, whihc don't let much for the administrator to decide over the system.
I thought this too about the video editing tools, but after your post and a
few searches with google, I managed to find the homepage os the Linux Movies
Group, which seems to be a usergroup for people who are into using linux for
movie making, the author of Film Gimp is one of the members. They have a quite
good link page to many usefull tools, of course not everything is open source
products (linux don't hinder companies to make properterian software), check
this page: http://linuxmovies.sourceforge.net/software/index.html
| Quote: | An important issue is: do you want to spend your life tinkering with
technology or do you want to make movies? On the surface this looks like a
fatal problem for Linux: administering Linux WILL take time away from
filmmaking.
|
No, it won't, just select a good distro, that are fast with updates, you don't
have to do much more than setup the system once and then see to that use the
tools the distro provides you to keep your system up to date, you will maybe
miss all those days spent on reinstalling microsoft windows.
| Quote: | All in all I think the only rational way for me to reach a conclusion is to
install Cinerella and Film Gimp on my new workstation (which'll be AMD64 so
only Linux will make full use of the processor). Of course, I'll dual-boot
with XP for now.
|
Dual boot is always a good option, specially if you switch from MSWin to Linux
(or any other *nix flavor) and it don't hurt to keep it there even after you
have moved completly over to linux, as there may be times when an application
may be easier to use in MSWin than in linux (and of course the other way
around too), for this reason you should have a large enough fat32 partition
where you can store videstreams that you want to be able to use in both
environments (ntfs support is there for linux, but it's still a bit dangerous
to use), otherwise XFS is a quite fast filesystem, and if you use proper
variants of RAID you could increase the filesystem speed a lot more. I
wouldn't install the whole system on XFS, only use that for slices that you
use for working with the video stream.
| Quote: | But, before I do that, please may I ask for your views and opinions on the
use of Linux as a digital video editing environment?
|
I think you should ask the Linux Movies Group for their opinion, they have
members who has done work on many different systems and can say a lot more
than people who only uses MSWin.
//Aho |
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Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:06 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Great, thanks a lot.
Jack
"J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> wrote in message
news:2ua3t7F28nu5kU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack) wrote:
Does anyone have any experience editing video in Linux? From my brief
searches on Google, it looks like Linux might well be a serious
competitor
to traditional desktop video editing OSes. Linux now has Firewire
support as
well as some awesome looking (and free) software like Cinerella and Cine
Paint (AKA Film Gimp).
So, can I dump Premiere Pro on WinXP and move entirely to Linux?
I know that Linux can be a pain to administer. In fact it's pretty damn
ugly
in places.
IMHO *nix is wonderfull for the administrators, as they can do so much
more
than just decide who gets a login and who is allowed to install software.
I've been brought up on Windows but I'm very eager to learn about the
pros
and cons of using Linux for my video production. I've read many press
releases from the likes of DreamWorks, ILM and Pixar all saying that
they're
running Linux on their workstations and render farms and a lot of
recently
released software for running grading / compositing software runs on
Linux.
Yes, there seems to be a great deal of studios who has switched over to
linux,
I guess mostly for making special effects.
And there are some impressive open-source and free film applications
like
Film Gimp and Cinerella. And real hot-shots contribute code to Film
Gimp
(like Dreamworks and ILM). And, of course, there are the disadvantages
of
Linux: the time spent administering the OS, the relatively poor support
for
video applications etc.
Administrating linux is a lot easier and more secure than let say
microsoft
windows, whihc don't let much for the administrator to decide over the
system.
I thought this too about the video editing tools, but after your post and
a
few searches with google, I managed to find the homepage os the Linux
Movies
Group, which seems to be a usergroup for people who are into using linux
for
movie making, the author of Film Gimp is one of the members. They have a
quite
good link page to many usefull tools, of course not everything is open
source
products (linux don't hinder companies to make properterian software),
check
this page: http://linuxmovies.sourceforge.net/software/index.html
An important issue is: do you want to spend your life tinkering with
technology or do you want to make movies? On the surface this looks
like a
fatal problem for Linux: administering Linux WILL take time away from
filmmaking.
No, it won't, just select a good distro, that are fast with updates, you
don't
have to do much more than setup the system once and then see to that use
the
tools the distro provides you to keep your system up to date, you will
maybe
miss all those days spent on reinstalling microsoft windows.
All in all I think the only rational way for me to reach a conclusion is
to
install Cinerella and Film Gimp on my new workstation (which'll be AMD64
so
only Linux will make full use of the processor). Of course, I'll
dual-boot
with XP for now.
Dual boot is always a good option, specially if you switch from MSWin to
Linux
(or any other *nix flavor) and it don't hurt to keep it there even after
you
have moved completly over to linux, as there may be times when an
application
may be easier to use in MSWin than in linux (and of course the other way
around too), for this reason you should have a large enough fat32
partition
where you can store videstreams that you want to be able to use in both
environments (ntfs support is there for linux, but it's still a bit
dangerous
to use), otherwise XFS is a quite fast filesystem, and if you use proper
variants of RAID you could increase the filesystem speed a lot more. I
wouldn't install the whole system on XFS, only use that for slices that
you
use for working with the video stream.
But, before I do that, please may I ask for your views and opinions on
the
use of Linux as a digital video editing environment?
I think you should ask the Linux Movies Group for their opinion, they have
members who has done work on many different systems and can say a lot more
than people who only uses MSWin.
//Aho |
|
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Tony Morgan
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:28 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In message <2u9u18F280jpiU4@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com>
writes
| Quote: | Tony Morgan wrote:
In message <2u9f8mF27i046U1@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton
spyro@f2s.com> writes
Snipped....
besides - if you HAVE the source, you arent forced to wait - if you
really want something, you can write it yourself, or pay someone else
to - no waiting required.
True Ian, but if you run a business on that basis you'll soon be
out-of-business.
I used to work for claranet. they made extensive use of OSS and I was
employed to make extensive modifications / additions to it.
Claranet are still around and have been for a long time.
Whats your point?
|
I keep on trying to put the fundamental issue across. It's return on
investment (ROI). Whenever a business has choices, an analysis should
(nay, must) be made across all choices. And the analysis should not be
made on the basis of how cute, how elegant, how technically brilliant or
indeed how easy the choice is - but on the Return On Investment based on
the cost of implementing that choice in the context of possible market
volume.
Insofar as Claranet (since you've brought it up), I've just looked at
their product range (in view of their "extensive use of OSS"), and I see
that they do offer four small non-scalable solutions based on three
alternative IBM X-Series machines or on Cobalt RaQ technology, all
running what is essentially their own implementation of Redhat (which
you were obviously involved with the development of). But this seems to
support my argument - the "extensive modifications/additions" are shared
across four products in a marketplace with reasonable volumes, so there
is obviously a good ROI for the investment in the "extensive
modifications/additions" - especially when this solution removes
licensing costs.
Interestingly though, their larger scalable systems (with much smaller
market volumes?) are based on Compaq DL3XX machines running Win2K Server
or Win 2003 Enterprise with (where appropriate) IIS and SQL servers,
according to requirements. Hardly OSS. And (as I've suggested) the
market volume is smaller.
Obviously a Linux distro (with Apache/MySQL where appropriate) has
substantial financial advantages in the minimal licensing cost against
Win Server/IIS/SQL - when OS development/licensing costs must be
distributed or paid for across volume sales.
But I still maintain my view that investment in the development of NLE
solutions on a Linux platform is unwise when viewed in the light of the
number and cost of established Win-based NLE solutions that can be
bought, effectively, "off-the-peg". And this applies to both entry-level
and the professional end of the marketplace. In fact I'd suggest that
even a lobotomised wood-louse might be able to manage to assemble such a
system without resorting to 3rd party support. And where you need too
cluster, all you need is a router and an MCE hack to set up shares at a
total cost of about £350 (including router). And in most NLE suite
environments you wouldn't even have to worry about cabling costs.
With any type of product it's very difficult to break into a market that
is dominated (in quantity) by an established infrastructure, where
you're offering a radical solution on a different infrastructure (which
in the context of Linux it is).
I hope I'm wrong - but in the commercial world of today, I doubt that I
am. And if I were wrong I'm sure someone would already be there and
banging on everyone's door.
All just my opinion of course :-)
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Ivan Marsh
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:31 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:06:45 +0100, Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack) wrote:
| Quote: | Great, thanks a lot.
Jack
|
MainActor for Linux:
http://www.mainconcept.com/products.shtml
--
i.m.
The USA Patriot Act is the most unpatriotic act in American history. |
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Tony Morgan
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In message <clokdr$igm$1@uns-a.ucl.ac.uk>, "Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)"
<d.kellyNOSPAM@NOSPAM.ucl.ac.uk> writes
| Quote: | Hmm...that approach seemed to work for DreamWorks, ILM and Pixar!
|
I'm not familiar with those products.
Are they Linux apps? And are they competing with similar products in a
large marketplace that is dominated by (functionally similar)
established products?
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Tony Morgan
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:46 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
In message <2u9uehF28m18uU1@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com>
writes
| Quote: | SjT wrote:
I'm with stupid ---> Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com> wrote:
|
Snipped....
I'm not going to reply point by point (most of which I'd agree with -
with reservations).
But I would (if you will forgive me) reminisce about the times when
software (at all levels and flavours) was extensively apha-tested, and
then through "special arrangements" with (often established) customers,
extensively beta-tested before full release.
These days due to pressure from the bean-counters, products are rushed
into production/distribution, warts and all. This is because development
costs are so high with increasingly complex applications and financial
returns must be found to keep things afloat
Bugs are fixed when reported, and the hapless customer-base has to keep
an eye open on the support web-page to ensure that he/she keeps up with
incremental bug-fixing versions.
And then (surprise, surprise) just when everyone is cooling down with a
stable and bug-free product, the manufacturer issues a new version that
requires the customer to fork out some more money to upgrade. Then the
cycle repeats, and repeats, and repeats - ad infinitum.
Way of the world, I'm afraid :-(
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Ivan Marsh
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:32:16 +0100, Tony Morgan wrote:
| Quote: | In message <clokdr$igm$1@uns-a.ucl.ac.uk>, "Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)"
d.kellyNOSPAM@NOSPAM.ucl.ac.uk> writes
Hmm...that approach seemed to work for DreamWorks, ILM and Pixar!
I'm not familiar with those products.
Are they Linux apps? And are they competing with similar products in a
large marketplace that is dominated by (functionally similar)
established products?
|
High-end linux video products?...
http://www.d2software.com/
http://www.ifx.com/
If you just want a good replacement for Premeire, MainActor v.5 for Linux:
http://www.mainconcept.com/products.shtml
--
i.m.
The USA Patriot Act is the most unpatriotic act in American history. |
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