| Author |
Message |
Tony Morgan
Guest
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 Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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In message <2u7kolF26thjaU1@uni-berlin.de>, J.O. Aho <user@example.net>
writes
Snipped....
While I hear (and can sympathise with) all the points you've made, the
simple fact is that at this time (and AFAICS in the foreseeable future)
going the Linux route in video NLE is a route for commercial disaster,
though beavering away in your attic SOHO with a Linux environment may be
very intellectually satisfying
And perhaps the most significant aspect (especially for Jack) is that
the amount of peer-support that is freely available with Windoze
applications like Premiere, Vegas and even Avid makes it a no-contest.
While those with exposure to Linux will with absolute justification rate
it far, far better than Windoze as an OS platform, we should perhaps be
asking why 97% of all corporates embrace MS Office as their office
automation solution of choice - and this where the cost is significantly
higher than Linux solutions. As IBM used to say "50 million people can't
be wrong" :-)
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info
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Tony Morgan
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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In message <B50nplKb3pfBFw0x@zen54488.dircon.co.uk>, Tony Morgan
<tonymorgan@xtreme.pipex.net> writes
Snipped....
| Quote: | [1] I'd recommend SOKKIT.
|
Sorry, Sokkit is really an Apache/PHP/MySQL for Windoze environments,
though I believe there is a Linux distro.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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ray
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:38 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:19:47 +0100, Tony Morgan wrote:
| Quote: | In message <2u7kolF26thjaU1@uni-berlin.de>, J.O. Aho <user@example.net
writes
Snipped....
While I hear (and can sympathise with) all the points you've made, the
simple fact is that at this time (and AFAICS in the foreseeable future)
going the Linux route in video NLE is a route for commercial disaster,
though beavering away in your attic SOHO with a Linux environment may be
very intellectually satisfying
And perhaps the most significant aspect (especially for Jack) is that
the amount of peer-support that is freely available with Windoze
applications like Premiere, Vegas and even Avid makes it a no-contest.
While those with exposure to Linux will with absolute justification rate
it far, far better than Windoze as an OS platform, we should perhaps be
asking why 97% of all corporates embrace MS Office as their office
automation solution of choice - and this where the cost is significantly
higher than Linux solutions. As IBM used to say "50 million people can't
be wrong" :-)
|
Points: I've never seen software where 'peer-support' was really worth
much.
At some point they'll have to upgrade their Windows version, and at that
point, that upgrade will cost more than switching to Linux, with all the
factors you've previously mentioned included. The only reason corporations
stick with MS is INERTIA. BTW perhaps you've heard of Munich. I'll
paraphrase your IBM quote by saying, in my experience, (and I could offer
many examples including Ford Explorer) "50 million people are rarely
right". |
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Robert Billing
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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Among the wreckage we found a fragment on which Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
had scratched:
| Quote: |
An important issue is: do you want to spend your life tinkering with
technology or do you want to make movies? On the surface this looks like a
fatal problem for Linux: administering Linux WILL take time away from
filmmaking.
|
If anything it's the other way around. I tend to do a bit of sysadmin
stuff when I set up a new box, and then it just runs until it wears out. |
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Tony Morgan
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:16 am Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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In message <2u7ndbF26ln94U1@uni-berlin.de>, ray <ray@zianet.com> writes
| Quote: | Points: I've never seen software where 'peer-support' was really worth
much.
|
And I'd point you to the Vegas support forums. And you'll also find
there Vegas staffers who invariably step in where a problem solution is
not forthcoming. Though with Vegas there's so much there that isn't
immediately visible (to make it easier to get rolling, there's a great
deal of depth there and often a query is "I wish..." rather than a
problem (since Vegas is quite well behaved), and there's someone there
to walk-you-through.
It's a while since I used Premiere (and then not for long) and I recall
that the peer support forums were very useful, though Premiere is a bit
bitty depending on having the right plug-ins for the more esoteric
operations.
And (since there's a lot of references here to Linux) IME the Linux
forums will sort most problems out.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Ian Molton
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:36 am Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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Tony Morgan wrote:
| Quote: | While those with exposure to Linux will with absolute justification rate
it far, far better than Windoze as an OS platform, we should perhaps be
asking why 97% of all corporates embrace MS Office as their office
automation solution of choice
|
<bab5> Delenn: 'Why do you humans always say that before doing something
massively unwise' Sinclair: 'tradition' </bab5>
| Quote: | - and this where the cost is significantly
higher than Linux solutions. As IBM used to say "50 million people can't
be wrong" :-)
|
Look at IBM now - its embracing linux... |
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Ian Molton
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:45 am Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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Robert Billing wrote:
| Quote: | If anything it's the other way around. I tend to do a bit of sysadmin
stuff when I set up a new box, and then it just runs until it wears out.
|
Agreed. my firewall / router ran for 3 years under the telly, with 2
kernel upgrades (2.4.16->2.4.20->2.6.6), neither of which offlined it
for over 5 minutes, despite the latetr requireing an entirely new module
infrastructure and new DSL drievrs.
the same machine also runs my domains (inc. mnementh.co.uk), my
database, Quake3 server and my TV card / DVB video multicasting.
it runs online 24/7.
I just rebuilt its OS about a week ago according to the current LFS work
(www.linuxfromscratch.org)
Despite the fact that I 'do it the hard way' and built my entire OS from
scratch (a 2-day process, including all my software that runs on the
box), the machine was still performing all its duties right up until the
point I switched the old and newly built OSes, and rebooted it (at which
point it continued its duties happily after rebooting).
2 days sounds like a lot but thats 2 days of administration in *3
years*, and even then it would have been less, except I was doing other
things in the meantime and the box is a fairly slow one (via M6000 - C3
@600MHz).
its a *totally* hands off box other than those two days (and
occasionally adding a new domain to the webserver on it which is just a
case of updating httpd.conf and restarting apache...
Windross boxen need daily maintainence. |
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Tony Morgan
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:32 am Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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In message <2u8fu6F285j4sU3@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com>
writes
| Quote: | Tony Morgan wrote:
While those with exposure to Linux will with absolute justification
rate it far, far better than Windoze as an OS platform, we should
perhaps be asking why 97% of all corporates embrace MS Office as
their office automation solution of choice
bab5> Delenn: 'Why do you humans always say that before doing
something massively unwise' Sinclair: 'tradition' </bab5
|
Because Linus Torvalds was (and still is) a Womble.
| Quote: |
- and this where the cost is significantly
higher than Linux solutions. As IBM used to say "50 million people
can't be wrong" :-)
Look at IBM now - its embracing linux...
|
On their enterprise business (i.e. non-PC machines) - what used to be
called "mainframes". You might perhaps recall that few of these machines
(or IBM systems) have ever run NT/Win Advanced Server OS [1]. It's a
long time since IBM effectively pulled out of the PC marketplace after
Bill Gates circumnavigated the copyright /licensing issues of PC DOS/MS
DOS.
Whenever folk start wombling on about Linux, I like to quote "the man"
"It will never be the kind of professional OS that Hurd will be (in the
next
century or so), but it's a nice learning tool".
See http://www.li.org/linuxhistory.php
[1] Perish the thought that they should help their former arch-enemy
BG.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Tony Morgan
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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In message <2u8geaF2836h4U1@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com>
writes
Snipped....
The thread-drift here has got me reminiscing ("NOT AGAIN" - the masses
cry :-)
It was ten years before Linux was but a twinkle in Linus's eye that I
was in the R&D team who developed the first Unix-like commercial
business client-server system - the Vienna System (Northern Telecom Data
Systems0.
And it was based on a port of Microsoft's own Unix-like OS, Xenix. Yes -
Bill Gates DID develop a 'nix OS well before Linux was even in the
embryonic stage.
But BG was so strapped for cash developing the PC/MS-DOS that Xenix
development was frozen (though it was already a stable and effective
OS). He farmed it out SCO to market/maintain (still retaining license
fees).
An at that time, an outfit called Quadratron produces a really good
integrated Office Automation software suite that was ported to both
Xenix and MS-DOS. Interestingly, a Google tells me that the system is
STILL going - on Linux platforms, see:
http://www.dr-quad.com/products.htm.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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SjT
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:24 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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I'm with stupid ---> "Daniel Kelly \(AKA Jack\)"
<d.kellyNOSPAM@NOSPAM.ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | So, can I dump Premiere Pro on WinXP and move entirely to Linux?
|
I tried linux out for video editing and the quality just wasn't there
(This was over a 1.5 years ago though.)
| Quote: | However, if you're in the early stages of setting up a production company
with four people who will need editing workstations, then the cost of having
Windows XP + Premiere Pro (or Avid XPress) for 4+ computers starts to
approach £2000. And guess what else we can do with £2000? Make a decent
short film.
|
Well it may be £2000 per workstation, but compare that to a hardware
solution and you have saved so much money it's unreal.
Linux would probably be cheaper, but lets be honest the support isn't
there and you're constantly relying on open source to get the software
updated. And being open source you have the issue that you could lose
your work at any minute.
Good work to those that are using linux for video editing though,
hopefully they will build the foundations of a good Video OS that we
can move to in a few years time?! Who knows :D
My experiences of linux have always left it out of favour with windows
xp though, purely because of the method to install programs and
drivers and the lack of software.
--
Playing: FIFA 2005.... Thats it atm
Awaiting: PES4 & HALO2 (Yawn yes i know) |
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Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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OK, point taken!
Thanks for your very detailed reply
Thanks,
Jack
"Tony Morgan" <tonymorgan@xtreme.pipex.net> wrote in message
news:zpfrdnI2lpfBFwyZ@zen54488.dircon.co.uk...
| Quote: | In message <2u75qiF26b6bqU2@uni-berlin.de>, ray <ray@zianet.com> writes
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:34:39 +0100, Tony Morgan wrote:
In message <2u6qqhF2539jeU1@uni-berlin.de>, darren <asifim@opera.com
writes
Snipped....
As I said, give kdenlive a whirl as well as Cinelerra. If you need to
do any accompanying audio editing, try Audacity.
For professionals, time is money. Trying this and trying that (while
being very interesting) is not commercial and likely to end in tears
IMHO. Even after costing out the learning curves, it takes time (aka
money) to get the workflow environment sorted out.
And at £2K (or more) per workstation, you've got to ensure that you're
going to get a ROI. Ditto with the cost of staff getting up to speed.
Point taken. It would be a good idea to detail one capable person to do a
prototype system, and see how that works out.
I'd suggest it's a bit more (and more fundamental) than that. Add up all
the setup costs - software/hardware/training/initial promotion [1].
Distribute that over (say) 12 months. Then add up the monthly ongoing
costs to that - salaries/advertising/lease of
premises/lighting/heating/telephone/consumables. You've also got to
factor in the cost of servicing the capital outlay of [1] (aka bank
interest). And perhaps remember that if you already have the capital to
hand, it would otherwise be earning interest if invested, so you *must*
factor it in. You've now got a cost per month before *any* return -
that's what you've got to bring in *just to break even* without *any*
profit whatsoever.
Salaries have to also be factored by 52/46 (to account for annual/bank
holidays - you still have to pay staff even when they aren't actually
doing work). And in the UK at least, you also have to factor in
employer's National Insurance contributions (about 10% of salaries) and
that's over the whole 52 weeks.
Obviously your choice of applications will affect the setup costs, and
will make an impact on your setup costs, but as you can see there's far
more to it than that.
I'd also suggest that a prototype system does not necessarily relate to
the cost/benefits when translated to a 4-up video editing enterprise
when workflows will have a significant impact.
Personally (and it *is* only my view) I think that Jack should abandon
thoughts about Linux and go "mainstream" - he'd be much less likely to
encounter unforeseen problems that could bring the whole enterprise
crashing about his ears (and pocket) :-)
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:47 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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Hi All,
Thanks loads for all the discussion...
....hmm, I think I will go ahead and tinker with Linux as a DVE on my own
machine in my own time... there are a lot of worries about digital video
editing on Linux but I expect it can only get better... and, who knows,
maybe Avid will port XPress over to Linux? Avid have already ported iNews
to Linux.
http://uk.avid.com/company/press/generic_intl_press.asp?taxID=1265
Jack
"Tony Morgan" <tonymorgan@xtreme.pipex.net> wrote in message
news:vzTMbwUG80fBFwAG@zen54488.dircon.co.uk...
| Quote: | In message <2u8fu6F285j4sU3@uni-berlin.de>, Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com
writes
Tony Morgan wrote:
While those with exposure to Linux will with absolute justification
rate it far, far better than Windoze as an OS platform, we should
perhaps be asking why 97% of all corporates embrace MS Office as
their office automation solution of choice
bab5> Delenn: 'Why do you humans always say that before doing
something massively unwise' Sinclair: 'tradition' </bab5
Because Linus Torvalds was (and still is) a Womble.
- and this where the cost is significantly
higher than Linux solutions. As IBM used to say "50 million people
can't be wrong" :-)
Look at IBM now - its embracing linux...
On their enterprise business (i.e. non-PC machines) - what used to be
called "mainframes". You might perhaps recall that few of these machines
(or IBM systems) have ever run NT/Win Advanced Server OS [1]. It's a
long time since IBM effectively pulled out of the PC marketplace after
Bill Gates circumnavigated the copyright /licensing issues of PC DOS/MS
DOS.
Whenever folk start wombling on about Linux, I like to quote "the man"
"It will never be the kind of professional OS that Hurd will be (in the
next
century or so), but it's a nice learning tool".
See http://www.li.org/linuxhistory.php
[1] Perish the thought that they should help their former arch-enemy
BG.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info |
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Ian Molton
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:27 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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Tony Morgan wrote:
| Quote: | bab5> Delenn: 'Why do you humans always say that before doing
something massively unwise' Sinclair: 'tradition' </bab5
Because Linus Torvalds was (and still is) a Womble.
|
Thats a real cohesive argument you got there...
| Quote: | Whenever folk start wombling on about Linux, I like to quote "the man"
"It will never be the kind of professional OS that Hurd will be (in the
next century or so), but it's a nice learning tool".
See http://www.li.org/linuxhistory.php
|
LOL. the hurd... haha. |
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Ian Molton
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:31 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
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SjT wrote:
| Quote: | Linux would probably be cheaper,
|
Debateable.
| Quote: | but lets be honest the support isn't there
|
Too vague - you need to qualify that.
| Quote: | and you're constantly relying on open source to get the software
updated.
|
This differs from constantly waiting for a new binary release (also an
option available with most linux stuff) how?
besides - if you HAVE the source, you arent forced to wait - if you
really want something, you can write it yourself, or pay someone else to
- no waiting required.
| Quote: | And being open source you have the issue that you could lose
your work at any minute.
|
Why? are you suggesting that OSS is inherently less stable than closed
source stuff? |
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Robert Billing
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Video editing in Linux? |
|
|
Among the wreckage we found a fragment on which Daniel Kelly (AKA Jack)
had scratched:
| Quote: | ...hmm, I think I will go ahead and tinker with Linux as a DVE on my own
machine in my own time... there are a lot of worries about digital video
editing on Linux but I expect it can only get better... and, who knows,
maybe Avid will port XPress over to Linux? Avid have already ported iNews
to Linux.
|
Incidentally, have you ever used the old QuesTech CLEO DVE? There is a
reason - I did most of the maths behind that thing and wrote the bulk of
the curved surface software[1]. I've often wondered if there might not be
a market for a purely software effects machine. Just a thought.
[1] In 68k assembler, in fact. |
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